That's great and the info you collect is going to be very helpful for future reefers. I like to be skeptical myself when it comes to trying anything new in my reef tank, but I also have a lot of respect for those who do. Without innovation this hobby wouldn't be where it is now. If you make a growth thread where you keep progression images of corals going through daily microbubble scrubbing, that'd be a very popular thread. I myself would be very interested in acros and how their growth and coloration respond to it over time.I'm going to continue using it on my system until I see adverse effects or no effect at all. I don't mind trying something new to see if it increases coral growth, the health of the animals, etc.
Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.
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Reeflogic
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It's good to be skeptical!! I'm just getting back into SPS, as I lost most, well 99% of mine during a relocation from MI to TN, and then let my system go down hill. It's been on the rebound for 4 or 5 months now and is doing well and the only SPS I have are a few cheap birdsnest to make sure they will do fine. I will be adding more acros, etc. over the next year (slowly, I'm not rich lol) and will definitely keep this and my thread updated. Your "diarrhea" analogy 
definitely got me thinking about the continual stress it could be causing, so I guess we will see where it leads! I'm sure a few SPS junkies might try it and provide some informative insight.
I would have tried this years ago, but was always worried about salt creep and to be completely honest, I'm not getting ANY! It's kind of crazy to think, but none whatsoever!
definitely got me thinking about the continual stress it could be causing, so I guess we will see where it leads! I'm sure a few SPS junkies might try it and provide some informative insight. I would have tried this years ago, but was always worried about salt creep and to be completely honest, I'm not getting ANY! It's kind of crazy to think, but none whatsoever!
blusop
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We kind of said the same thing lol on the part of using certain chemicals....only difference in our opinion was looking at a successful reefOK, but few experienced people think those other things are "needed" as almost no one used them for decades and they often had nice tanks. That's what was confusing me.
But on your last sentence, no, just looking at a successful reef is not enough to say whether it is successful because all the husbandry practices are beneficial, or whether it is successful despite the fact that some are neutral or even detrimental. That is so very often the case with chemical additives. People add them and have a great tank, so other folks assume they are good. That's not always true.
That said, I'm not making any comment on its utility. I can certainly see how it would act as a potentially different type of skimmer, and possibly more. If you are happy with the effects on your tank, there's certainly no reason to change.
blusop
Active Member
That's the type of statements i hate..."WELL I'VE BEEN DOING THIS OR THAT FOR SO MANY YEARS AND I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT" ....well I've been welding 15 years and guess what...if someone told me that there was a process to weld Aluminum to Stainless i would of been like WoW tell me about it...no need to say my career choice or how many years I've been in that field smh...but any way...here's one article for you... I'm sure you'll research it and get back to me...oh and after 15 years of welding i had the opportunity to learn that welding procedure 2 years ago...the people who showed me how to do it never heard about my "YEARS" of experience. ..because i wanted to learn not be arrogant....
Squamosa
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Thales
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That's the type of statements i hate..."WELL I'VE BEEN DOING THIS OR THAT FOR SO MANY YEARS AND I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT" ....well I've been welding 15 years and guess what...if someone told me that there was a process to weld Aluminum to Stainless i would of been like WoW tell me about it...no need to say my career choice or how many years I've been in that field smh...but any way...here's one article for you... I'm sure you'll research it and get back to me...oh and after 15 years of welding i had the opportunity to learn that welding procedure 2 years ago...the people who showed me how to do it never heard about my "YEARS" of experience. ..because i wanted to learn not be arrogant....
You added the "well", and the attitude (that I didn't feel) - I was asking a question and putting that question in context. Reading between the lines is a skill that often gets you incorrect conclusions.
That said, I am not sure how what you attached shows that "Public Aquariums have been doing this for years" - the document you attached talks about one tank at the 2005 worlds fair in Japan, nothing that I can see about a public aquariums - am I missing something? Which public aquariums have been doing this for years?
Thales
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We see growth pics all the time like those in tanks that don't bubble. What would be useful would be two tanks side by side, run the same except for bubbling, and then comparison of fragments of the same corals put into the tanks at the same time.
Squamosa
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Hi Richard
I have no beef with you and I understand the scientific method you are proposing, however, for a stronger statistical power we would require a minimum number of replicates here (it's good to see there is a control in place), something a home study like mine just can't accomplish. The end goal would be to publish this research in a journal would it not, otherwise what would be the point. If not published, then it would be just as valid for me to put my little study across in my thread as valid.
I'm not selling anything nor claiming to sell anything. Neither am I claiming that it is THE method to anything. What I am saying though is, the results I'm getting are really working for me and the animals in my tank, I'm sharing my experiences,using my tank as a testing ground (for detriment or not) and I strongly urge people to try this methodology for the cost of a morning latte or two. You did the same when talking about your tank surviving and thriving with high PO4 levels.
We are a wild-eyed bunch of enthusiastic home amateurs and our numbers are growing.
Perhaps one day when my lab is free I will do those experiments and perhaps I will ask you to peer review my paper too, but until then, you have nothing to lose much to gain
blusop
Active Member
Was busy getting ready for church....I'll upload the rest in a few....and "YEARS" is exactly what it meand...2 years is YEARS... anything beyond 1 year...and your Attitude is apparent i don't need to read between any lines...you are transparent lol
Thales
Valuable Member
Do you think I have a beef with you? I don't.
I did not propose a scientific study, I proposed a side by side which would be the easy next step to the anecdote presented about bubbling (or anything for that matter). The end goal is to determine if this method has any impact on coral growth - right now it appears it doesn't have a negative effect which is great. Providing some evidence that it has a positive effect on growth would be even greater.
I know, and I am confused as to why you think I think you are saying this is THE method for anything or why you think I am saying anything negative about sharing your experiences. People get the same kinds of results without bubbling, so I am trying to determine if there is any actual benefit to coral growth by bubbling. There are a million things people do because they feel it helps, but so often, people stop doing them after a time and report little difference - which was the experience I had with GFO which is what prompted me to do further study and eventually put together an article.
I spent significantly more than the cost of a latte or two on what I reported and spent a whole lot of time writing it up and collecting data from other tanks - and urged people not to do it in their own tanks.
I think you don't know my background!
A quote from the PO4 article that seems appropriate:
"In no way are we saying that everyone should run out and run reefs at high PO43- levels. We are simply not sure what is going on in these reefs with higher than ‘normal’ PO43- levels and any methodological changes need more understanding and support before they can be recommended. What we are saying is how wonderful it is that observations from aquairsts can make us take a long hard look at what we previously accepted as ‘figured out’. It may turn out that higher PO43- levels are not much of a big deal at all, or it may turn out that we will come to understand some previously unknown process in aquariums. Only time will tell, and it sure seems fantastic to be part of a living, breathing, changing scientific effort where skeptical thinking informs all sides of the process."
Perhaps one day when my lab is free I will do those experiments and perhaps I will ask you to peer review my paper too, but until then, you have nothing to lose much to gain
And generating evidence that bubbling has a positive effect on coral growth would be really helpful. I am so confused as to why you and others seem to think there is no middle ground between anecdote and peer reviewed publishing.
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Thales
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If you have evidence that some public aquaria have been doing this for years, I am really interested in seeing it. I am super confused why you posted the last thing you posted as it has nothing to do with pubic aquaria.
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Need some clarity on the mechanism that researcher link regarding nano bubbles controlling cellular osmoreg such that marine fish can live with fw fish specifically due to bubble size. Claims seemed like sales at that point, awaiting clarity on that seemingly formal link.
I saw the blog writes in 2005 about the goldfish and clowns supposedly being kept in same tank by some additive offered for sale. Clearly that didn't catch on, and both species can be adapted to varying salt levels for a pic or for a show.
I saw the blog writes in 2005 about the goldfish and clowns supposedly being kept in same tank by some additive offered for sale. Clearly that didn't catch on, and both species can be adapted to varying salt levels for a pic or for a show.
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blusop
Active Member
Never assumed i know your mind...and i posted that concerning EVIDENCE OF IT'S EFFECT ON LIVESTOCK. ...no other reason...If you have evidence that some public aquaria have been doing this for years, I am really interested in seeing it. I am super confused why you posted the last thing you posted as it has nothing to do with pubic aquaria.
Have a good time at Church - hopefully the sermon will be on not judging others or assume that you know their mind better than they do.
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Reeflogic
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Skepticism and debates such as this are always good for new ideas, technology or even ways of thinking. Since we are reading and not listening in person, people can be misunderstood! I think the point of this thread is to hear about results, whether it's negative or positive. So if you are not doing this method and you have not tried it on your own system or in a controlled environment with 2 identical systems, why knock it?
Allow the brave, risky people to do their thing and let's see if they end up being heroes or chumps down the road. Eventually, someone with money to burn is going to test this on a larger scale, monitoring various coral species, etc. and then we should have some scientific results but until that happens it appears we only have hobbyists willing to try something different to remedy certain issues with their own systems. I'm less skeptical because there are people in this thread who have had success and zero negative impact on their own systems.
@Thales - I am still curious to your answer regarding surge in the ocean! No sarcasm, just an honest interest in understanding it more / better!
Allow the brave, risky people to do their thing and let's see if they end up being heroes or chumps down the road. Eventually, someone with money to burn is going to test this on a larger scale, monitoring various coral species, etc. and then we should have some scientific results but until that happens it appears we only have hobbyists willing to try something different to remedy certain issues with their own systems. I'm less skeptical because there are people in this thread who have had success and zero negative impact on their own systems.
@Thales - I am still curious to your answer regarding surge in the ocean! No sarcasm, just an honest interest in understanding it more / better!
Thales
Valuable Member
I didn't ask you for evidence of it's effect on livestock - I asked you about your quote "...this technique is nothing new...Public Aquariums have been doing this for years...it's just now being used by home aquarist because of EC posting on fb and other areas".
Please let us know what public aquariums have been doing this for years.
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reef_junkie
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Question; I apologize if this has been asked/answered already. What duration is the norm for running bubbles. I like the idea of this being a timed nightly event, just curious as to how long to do this.
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I think it's because of what MySpace did as a letdown in general I couldn't risk doubling that disappointment again heh. Exes from high school were meant to stay that way, I found.
I think it's because of what MySpace did as a letdown in general I couldn't risk doubling that disappointment again heh. Exes from high school were meant to stay that way, I found.
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