Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Liquidangel22]

Ok so I've been reading this, and the other thread about this, for quite a bit now. Pretty much skipping over anything not topic related lol.

I decided to go for it and give this whole bubble thing a try. I have a 29gal biocube, 2 clowns, BTA, couple soft corals and a lot of live rock. I've had issues keeping cyano under control on the sand bed, as well as random nitrate spikes thanks to my crazy schedule not allowing me to maintain the bioballs quite as well. Other than that it's been a pretty ok tank. I don't do anything fancy, no dosing stuff, just the basics of a skimmer, standard carbon filter, bioballs, and purigen.

Last week I bought a 3.7 pump, hooked one line to my skimmer, and the other to a flex tube into a second wooden airstone that I had as a backup for my skimmer. Wedged it between the wall in the 3rd chamber and my intake for the return pump, and put a valve on the tube so when I wanted to bubble all I had to do was turn the knob and walk away.

Not gonna lie, it's been kinda epic.

Because of the biocube design, half my tank looks like jets on a hot tub, the other side is a gentle cloud of baby bubbles. I've been able to clearly identify the dead spots in my tank because anything that's well bubbled is pristine white sand, the rest still has the red tint. I tested my water the day before and my nitrates had spiked to over 160 . I did a water change, cleaned out the ball chamber, and got it down to 40.

Next day I bubbled.

Frogspawn mucused out like crazy, zenia that were on the brink of grey death pinked back up, Bta also slimed and fluffed WAY out like it was enjoying the bath, clowns could care less lol. Bubbled for 2 hours, rechecked nitrates next morning and they had dropped to 5.

After week 1 of about 2 hours 3 times a week (crazy schedule) Everything is looking so great, the clowns are eating better, nitrates are stable and barely reading, zenia has exploded along with the star polyps, BTA has gotten more color, and I'm emptying out my skimmer a lot more frequently.

Not saying it's a "magic" cure, but it's really helped me maintain my tank so much better. I was to the point I was about to give it up because I just didn't have the time it needed to get stable in such a small environment, and now I can maintain it on the same schedule as my long established fresh tank. It's been a really great experience. Thank you so much to all the people on here sticking to giving info and helping others out. <3

 

[Lasse]

From what I have seen in the past (just my experience, Lasse) the dinoflagellates we have encountered were tolerant to more lower o2 levels and seemed to pop up at the demise of cyanobacteria after a dose regimen of Chemiclean (which also is a proprietary ingredient that they will not publish)

Are there different types of dino in the states compared with the ones in Sweden? The organism we name dinoflagellate here in Sweden is an organism that use photosynthesis – and oxygen levels is normally very high in an aquarium that’s have a bloom of dinoflagellates - at least here in Sweden.

It seems at though by sheer number (dinoflagellate film) do suffocate the beneficial bacteria. Dinoflagellates seem to also be toxic as well to corals and even snails and other invertebrates that try to ingest them or travel across the film of dinos...

Toxic – maybe but to state that an organism that use photosynthesis is able to suffocate other organisms – I not buy that. And typical for the ones here in Sweden is that they disappear during the dark period (the night) so for me is the suffocate theory not even true during the dark period.

So... all we did is siphon out as much visible dinoflagellates we could,

Now we are talking – lower the biomass so other organism get a chance to establish themselves – classical population ecology. See my post about A.Cubicus (post 929 and 933) – that drawing explain why this work.

then induce a bacterial bloom with sludge eating bacteria and nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria by means of a carbon dosing methodology.

Nitrifying bacteria is not heterotrophic bacteria (use organic carbon as carbon source) – they are autotrophic bacteria (use inorganic carbon like carbonates and bicarbonates as carbon source) Use of fast organic carbon dosage will harm this bacteria strains because the heterotrophic bacteria grow must faster and will out-compete the more slowly growing nitrifies. This is something that often people using organic carbon dosage do not know.

Denitrifying bacteria is in most case facultative aerobic heterotrophic bacteria – it means that if the oxygen level come down near zero and below they are able to use nitrate instead of oxygen in the cellular respiration (and if also nitrate is absent – sulfate). Bubbling (high oxygen level) will therefore counteract denitrification

All the while, the aeration (with really fine bubbles) were able to dispel the excess CO2 produced by the dense bacterial population and maintain a healthy army of bacteria that smother and outcompete the dinoflagellates for nutrients and colonizing space.

Yes maybe - but a good skimmer manages degassing as good.

For me everything cook down to that manual cleaning is the most important part.

It also looks like that the problems with dino and cyano has accelerated during the same time as methods like ultra low nutrient levels and organic carbon dosing gained ground. If there is any connection or not - I do not know - I have only notice this.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Greenstreet.1]

NOT HERE TO ARGUE IM HERE TO LEARN.

Ok with that said I don't have Fb so I don't get to see have the things you guys see I have just been following this and the other thread here on r2r I have a few questions concerning this

Can someone explain these three parts for me ? I did not understand the answers that where given.

1.So how do I know it's working
2.How effective is it in treating common aquarium problems.

And the last one I would like to understand how it does what the answer say it does : 3. How do we make it even better than it already is.

Thank you for your time.


ONELOVE ALLDAY.

It looks like when you ask real questions no one has a answer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Because of the biocube design, half my tank looks like jets on a hot tub, the other side is a gentle cloud of baby bubbles. I've been able to clearly identify the dead spots in my tank because anything that's well bubbled is pristine white sand, the rest still has the red tint. I tested my water the day before and my nitrates had spiked to over 160 . I did a water change, cleaned out the ball chamber, and got it down to 40.

Next day I bubbled.

Frogspawn mucused out like crazy, zenia that were on the brink of grey death pinked back up, Bta also slimed and fluffed WAY out like it was enjoying the bath, clowns could care less lol. Bubbled for 2 hours, rechecked nitrates next morning and they had dropped to 5.

I just want to be sure I am understanding correctly.

Are you attributing a drop in nitrate from 40 ppm to 5 ppm from a single 2 h bubbling event?

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

I sure love this friendly community!

Who do I pay to take care of my tanks?

In even the most peaceful aquariums sometimes a fish goes rogue and starts picking on other fish. Our "aquarium" for the most part, is friendly.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Guys please check the pride at the door. From here on out we are going to remove offending users from the thread. You'll be able to read but not respond.

 

[Lasse]

cleaned out the ball chamber

Ball chamber - is that a biofilter

Sincerely Lasse

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

We're also cleaning up the mess so we can have a constructive conversation. So if you lose a post then suck it up buttercup!

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Also there is an ignore feature where you click the users name and then click ignore. You won't see their posts.

 

[dwebb1031]

For those singling out @Thales, I think if you start from post one and read through you will find him question and asking for data. I don't know him, but he is coming from a research/science background and only asked for data. He has stated over and over that he would like to see some of the claims proven! Some on this sight are getting borderline personal with attacks for no reason! The back and forth from he and @Cruz_Arias has been wonderful because Cruze is collecting data. Cruze seems to have a ton knowledge commercially, but learning how to apply it for us.

This hobby needs more skeptics! Anyone making a claim should have at least rudamentary data to support! There is another thread where I just learned KZ coral snow is simply calcium carbonate in a fancy bottle for 12-15x the price it should be! And another product is simply copper!!! Yet know one is upset??!!! That really irks me!!!! Where are you people at on that!!!

The down side to that is he won't take evidence of working systems. Prof to him requires a person whom may have been running this method for sometime to set up an identical in all ways system (bio load, live stock, lighting, plumbing, etc) to see if they have different results. While this is how science is done (constants/variables) it would be hard for some one who has had an established setup to do. To do this correctly both systems need to be started from scratch at the same time. Well myself as well as other hobbyist don't have the time or money to prove to some guy trolling a forum that something working for me. This forum isn't Harvard or Yale, it's a place for people share their experiences both good and bad, and to share feedback based on such experiences. This started as people talking about micro bubbles and turned into him telling everyone they're wrong essentially cause he said so. If he really want scientific proof it works he should do the science. Otherwise let people say "here's my refer, this is a process I use. Here are the results I have noticed." And move on. No one is trying to make him do this in his tank. There fore he has no place in this thread.

 

[dwebb1031]

Im not being nice about it anymore. At not a single point did i say it would lift a big pile of **** off the bottom of your tank, I said it helps remove larger particles from the water column that may normally get stuck to SPS, leaving room for smaller particles that sps may actually utilize for food.

I reached out to help you with your issue as you seemed to be struggling with it, there is nothing worse than a fellow reefer in distress and all you did was turn it around so you could feel like a smart guy . You said you had plenty of flow in your tank, the lie detector test proved THAT was lie. (The guy with no power heads wondering why there is a big pile of crap building up in his tank every day, and why he has a dino problem). You're just here to argue for the sake of arguing.

Cruz this kind of reminds me of another thread i saw. Someone asked what the harms of vaping may be on an open top reef aquarium. A few people gave examples of why it may be detrimental, not saying it was. And it quickly turned into people, including the original poster ranting about why the people trying to help we're all wrong.

 

[Reeflogic]

I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that the skeptics could easily set up their own tests, keep "opinions" to themselves and then include their results, rather than the back and forth bickering... Wouldn't it be easier to do that, rather than spend all day chewing up and dissecting everyone else's posts? I certainly do not want to ignore anyone on this forum, because I respect everyone's opinion. I'd just like to see less arguing and more definitive proof that it works or doesn't work and why, what, how.

I'm 3 weeks into bubbling @ 4 hours a night. I cannot say that the bubbling is making my tank better, but my tank does appear clearer/cleaner and everything is fat and healthy and there are certainly no negative aspects that I can see. It would just be nice to catch up on this thread without all the non-related drama. Even some of the posts that seem sincere are riddled with sarcasm. At this rate, I'm going to buy stock in popcorn...

Everyone relax, the Stanley Cup playoffs have started!!

 

[McMullen]

The down side to that is he won't take evidence of working systems. Prof to him requires a person whom may have been running this method for sometime to set up an identical in all ways system (bio load, live stock, lighting, plumbing, etc) to see if they have different results. While this is how science is done (constants/variables) it would be hard for some one who has had an established setup to do. To do this correctly both systems need to be started from scratch at the same time. Well myself as well as other hobbyist don't have the time or money to prove to some guy trolling a forum that something working for me. This forum isn't Harvard or Yale, it's a place for people share their experiences both good and bad, and to share feedback based on such experiences. This started as people talking about micro bubbles and turned into him telling everyone they're wrong essentially cause he said so. If he really want scientific proof it works he should do the science. Otherwise let people say "here's my refer, this is a process I use. Here are the results I have noticed." And move on. No one is trying to make him do this in his tank. There fore he has no place in this thread.

I cannot speak for @Thales, I do not know him, or anything about him except he must work at a public aquarium. Thales has posted a few times the bold claims made and asked how do we know they are true? Others like @Randy Holmes-Farley have asked similar questions without the backlash. I come from the emergency medicine "world," and being skepticle is necessary as things taught and learned often change just a few years later! Theories are proved and disproved all the time! If a physician questions the study method, primary outcome, patient population,etc, etc, of a trial published it is not then up to the question party to prove anything! Rather, what ever entity published the study or trial must release all the data and methods. Then often other trials and studies are setup to duplicate results or ask/answer new or different questions. There is much bias associated with anecdotal evidence especially in a hobby as this where no two tanks are the same. So, bubbling probably benefits some tanks, but we need to know what is happening and why. Anyone claiming to have a new or better way should provide at least some data! This goes for all the companies selling products too! We as a community should do a better job of asking questions and learning basic science! Otherwise I could tell you I pee in my tank every night to boost nitrates! Nitrates?, you say! Yes the ammonia in my pee converts to nitrite then nitrate and this is the best and safest way to increase nitrates in a reef tank! I've been doing it for three months and my tank has never looked better! Frankly, I cannot believe everyone isn't doing it!!

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

I cannot speak for @Thales, I do not know him, or anything about him except he must work at a public aquarium. Thales has posted a few times the bold claims made and asked how do we know they are true? Others like @Randy Holmes-Farley have asked similar questions without the backlash. I come from the emergency medicine "world," and being skepticle is necessary as things taught and learned often change just a few years later! Theories are proved and disproved all the time! If a physician questions the study method, primary outcome, patient population,etc, etc, of a trial published it is not then up to the question party to prove anything! Rather, what ever entity published the study or trial must release all the data and methods. Then often other trials and studies are setup to duplicate results or ask/answer new or different questions. There is much bias associated with anecdotal evidence especially in a hobby as this where no two tanks are the same. So, bubbling probably benefits some tanks, but we need to know what is happening and why. Anyone claiming to have a new or better way should provide at least some data! This goes for all the companies selling products too! We as a community should do a better job of asking questions and learning basic science! Otherwise I could tell you I pee in my tank every night to boost nitrates! Nitrates?, you say! Yes the ammonia in my pee converts to nitrite then nitrate and this is the best and safest way to increase nitrates in a reef tank! I've been doing it for three months and my tank has never looked better! Frankly, I cannot believe everyone isn't doing it!!

Well said!!!!

 

[Thales]

The down side to that is he won't take evidence of working systems.

I will and do! It is just that that evidence is limited and some of the claims being made cannot possibly be known by observation. People keep saying things like 'the pH went up', but no one, that I have seen, has given any numbers to support that. It may very well be true, but if we care about animals lives and our money, we need more than that kind of evidence.

Prof to him requires a person whom may have been running this method for sometime to set up an identical in all ways system (bio load, live stock, lighting, plumbing, etc) to see if they have different results.

No - that example was specifically to support the idea that this method produces better growth in coral. As some of the other posters have shown, growth is a difficult thing to determine on the fly, so to say this provides better growth needs stronger evidence than 'I think it does'.

While this is how science is done (constants/variables) it would be hard for some one who has had an established setup to do. To do this correctly both systems need to be started from scratch at the same time. Well myself as well as other hobbyist don't have the time or money to prove to some guy trolling a forum that something working for me. This forum isn't Harvard or Yale,

It could be that difficult or it could be as easy as two buckets. I have never asked for a rigorous scientific study, and have explained this a dozen times in this thread, yet somehow, asking for even one step up from anecdote is somehow asking for the impossible. Importantly, I am not asking you to do that experiment, I am asking the people making the claims about the method to support their claims.

it's a place for people share their experiences both good and bad, and to share feedback based on such experiences.

And that is exactly what I am doing.

This started as people talking about micro bubbles and turned into him telling everyone they're wrong essentially cause he said so.

Really? By asking for better than anecdote to support extreme claims I am telling people they are wrong? That seems so odd to me. And if you go and look, you will see that several other people have asked for the same kind of thing.
Now, I do tell people they are wrong when they are - telling lies about me in an effort to discredit me I will always point out.

If he really want scientific proof it works he should do the science.

No, that is not what I am asking for. I am asking for some simple citizen science that anyone can do. Showing that this raises pH or that it stablizes pH is almost a trivial thing for which to provide evidence. Every reefkeeper can measure pH.

Otherwise let people say "here's my refer, this is a process I use. Here are the results I have noticed." And move on. No one is trying to make him do this in his tank. There fore he has no place in this thread.

If David tells me to go leave this forum I surely will. Other than that, it seems I have as much 'right' to post here as you or anyone else. We are all just talking about something we love...why it sometimes becomes adversarial is always weird.

 

[Lasse]

Otherwise I could tell you I pee in my tank every night to boost nitrates! Nitrates?, you say! Yes the ammonia in my pee converts to nitrite then nitrate and this is the best and safest way to increase nitrates in a reef tank! I've been doing it for three months and my tank has never looked better! Frankly, I cannot believe everyone isn't doing it!!

You do not know how right you are - I have cultivated phytoplankton (both fresh and saltwater) with that method - with great success

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Chibils]

Im not being nice about it anymore. At not a single point did i say it would lift a big pile of **** off the bottom of your tank, I said it helps remove larger particles from the water column that may normally get stuck to SPS, leaving room for smaller particles that sps may actually utilize for food.

I reached out to help you with your issue as you seemed to be struggling with it, there is nothing worse than a fellow reefer in distress and all you did was turn it around so you could feel like a smart guy . You said you had plenty of flow in your tank, the lie detector test proved THAT was lie. (The guy with no power heads wondering why there is a big pile of crap building up in his tank every day, and why he has a dino problem). You're just here to argue for the sake of arguing.

Dude doesn't run any power heads because he rocks a 12,000LPH (3,200GPH) return pump. On a 40 gallon tank. That's 80X tank turnover, like SPS tank turnover. He could probably do more to fix flow problems, but I think it's disingenuous to imply he has water flow issues.

Edited - got caught back up up by a few pages. Many thanks to @revhtree for trying to keep it positive in here.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

I've been trying to stay out of this thread because it's become a &&&& show, but dude doesn't run any power heads because he rocks a 12,000LPH (3,200GPH) return pump. On a 40 gallon tank. That's 80X tank turnover, like SPS tank turnover.

Also, are we allowed to post screenshots of private messages?

That's a negative! Please report any thing you see that breaks the rules.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Forget Bout the back and fourth it seems like no one want to answer any questions but are will to argue that it works but still will not explain things they post. We are all here to learn and teach each other lets do that.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Everyone is WELCOME here! Just keep is flame free and don't personal an we can all learn together!