Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

furam28 · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Science is science, prove there is no exchange or charging of bubbles in a solution as they move past each other.
Set egos aside please. This is not a right or wrong or an opinion thread. It's whether or not micro and nanobubbling works.

That's not how it works. You are the one making the claim that bubbles rubbing against each other create static electricity. So you need to prove it, or back it up with scientific evidence. Without it, its just unsubstantiated claims. No matter how much you throw the word "science" around.

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Reefahholic said:
Cruz, still waiting on your videos since you think the way I'm doing it won't work.

Please show us in videos the right way and how your bubbles look.

If you are going to use a pump, do it like this.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=492475117624472&id=1511705699091667

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

furam28 said:
That's not how it works. You are the one making the claim that bubbles rubbing against each other create static electricity. So you need to prove it, or back it up with scientific evidence. Without it, its just unsubstantiated claims. No matter how much you throw the word "science" around.

Scientific method is to disprove what is being observed by process of elimination.

Tear the hypothesis apart.

eg8r210 · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Personally i enjoy their personal attacks because they cannot disprove the science with science. Only opinions.

From what I can tell, Randy isn't attacking you, just proving your choice of words is incorrect. He hasn't yet said that micro bubbling doesn't work, that I know of, but rather interested to see what it actually does.

Greenstreet.1 · Mar 30, 2016

Triggerjay said:
We are way off topic now. Time for me to gracefully bow out. What works for one may not work for all. It has worked for me and I cannot explain the science behind it, nor do I care to know after this thread.

Not looking for a big science answer but how has it worked for you and how long have you been running it ?

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

eg8r210 said:
From what I can tell, Randy isn't attacking you, just proving your choice of words is incorrect. He hasn't yet said that micro bubbling doesn't work, that I know of, but rather interested to see what it actually does.

I know Randy isn't. I've asked him in the other thread how to purposefully and properly quote observations and other quantum physics studies in a reef forum.

Chemistry is mind blowing and I'm looking to him for alignment in his vocabulary and my terminology.

Reefahholic · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
If you are going to use a pump, do it like this.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=492475117624472&id=1511705699091667

Ok, can you show us all how that is set up/ works and the pieces we need to buy for testing.

I'm still not convinced your output is enough and bubbles are small enough. Although I can't really tell from the video how it's actually working nor can I see the parts used.

cb684 · Mar 30, 2016

So why don't we call Cruz Arias observations what they are (observations) and see if they are reproducible? He will not be able to test them to the level we all would like to see. And I believe this is kind of the point of this thread anyways, right? I am trying to get more details of micro-nano bubbles nozzles from Anzai MCS, and from Riverforest Corporation because this is what I want to test. Let's see what happens, but it will take some time.

Reefahholic · Mar 30, 2016

Here's my take on this. We're all fellow reefers. Let's not argue among ourselves. Let the people who have knowledge make videos are post pictures on how to make the best micro bubblers. Then we can all test and document the results and draw real conclusions after six months. This should be a team effort. Randy's a chemist, Cruz works in the field, some are good writers and have good documentation skills, others make great videos, others good photographers, and those who communicated well. Unite team!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Ok, Randy. Tranfer of electrons is electrical movement. Please understand that's how things dissolve in a solution.

Isn't that why we constantly circulate our make up water with a water pump to keep things in solution?

Moving solution has a higher solubility rate. Please refer to fluid dynamics and dynamic chemistry.

No, transfer of electrons is not how things dissolve in solution. In ionic salts, the electrons are already transferred, and in other molecules, like sugar, there is no electron transfer.

Moving water speeds dissolution by sweeping away the dissolved material before it can re-precipitate onto the solid (and only by that mechanism), but that has nothing to do with your previous claims that I commented on.

Lasse · Mar 30, 2016

Maybe we should send a link to this thread to Helen Czerski at the University of Rhode Island's Graduate School of Oceanography. She has done a very good documentary – "Pop the science of bubbles" together with BBC back in 2013. I have try to get a link of this film but not succeeded to find it at the net. However here it’s a short film with her https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XotBYcft_qQ

Sincerely Lasse

Edit - I found it - http://hdmovie14.ag/watch/zGOrNgxK-pop-the-science-of-bubbles.html

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Reefahholic said:
Ok, can you show us all how that is set up/ works and the pieces we need to buy for testing.

I'm still not convinced your output is enough and bubbles are small enough. Although I can't really tell from the video how it's actually working nor can I see the parts used.

They add up over time because they do not rise to the surface and pop...

If 5% an hour is generated, then that 5% of bubbles dwell for hours.

It's aggregated not one and done.

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Lasse said:
Maybe we should send a link to this thread to Helen Czerski at the University of Rhode Island's Graduate School of Oceanography. She has done a very good documentary – "Pop the science of bubbles" together with BBC back in 2013. I have try to get a link of this film but not succeeded to find it at the net. However here it’s a short film with her https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XotBYcft_qQ

Sincerely Lasse

Hello Lasse... we have quoted some of her work regarding nanobubbles that she documented.

I believe they used sound or ultrasonics to generate the scrubbing bubbles though.

Cruz_Arias · Mar 30, 2016

Thus far, I have not seen any damning evidence that this method doesn't do what has been claimed it does.

1. Proper Aeration
2. Enhanced Nutrient Transport from the DT to the sump to be skimmed out.

All benefits from addressing these two points are seen and observed.

One side is actually practicing the method, the other side is based on speculation.

Reefahholic · Mar 30, 2016

Good idea Lasse, but we got to admit....if Cruz is seeing results...well he's seeing results. Can't argue with that. However, if this is the case, he'll need to keep documenting his results longterm in order to prove his point.

Thales · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Thus far, I have not seen any damning evidence that this method doesn't do what has been claimed it does.

1. Proper Aeration
2. Enhanced Nutrient Transport from the DT to the sump to be skimmed out.

All benefits from addressing these two points are seen and observed.

One side is actually practicing the method, the other side is based on speculation.

And somehow, you are continuing to misrepresent what other people are saying, even though at other times you clearly do understand. I am throughly confused.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Science is science, prove there is no exchange or charging of bubbles in a solution as they move past each other.
Set egos aside please. This is not a right or wrong or an opinion thread. It's whether or not micro and nanobubbling works.

It may be a thread whether it works or not, but one cannot help but address claims about how it works that are not correct.

Bubbles charge for well understood reasons without movement, and movement does not charge bubbles. Some bubbles even have no charge when the ph is at about the balance point near pH 4.5.

I'm not sure why you are stuck on this point since neither the charge, nor especially how the charge got there it has anything to do with whether the method works to do good things in a reef tank.

.

Lasse · Mar 30, 2016

@Reefahholic I have no problems with his 2 claims in post 403 - If you now and then convert your DT to a skimmer - you will get both good gas exchange and nutrient transport

However, some other explanations and claims are a little to much New Age for me.

Sincerely Lasse

furam28 · Mar 30, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Thus far, I have not seen any damning evidence that this method doesn't do what has been claimed it does.

1. Proper Aeration
2. Enhanced Nutrient Transport from the DT to the sump to be skimmed out.

All benefits from addressing these two points are seen and observed.

One side is actually practicing the method, the other side is based on speculation.

Agree. Stick to this message, and not so much with the pseudoscientific "bubbles rubbing, creating charge, electrifying life... " and you're golden.

cb684 · Mar 30, 2016

Lasse said:
@Reefahholic I have no problems with his 2 claims in post 403 - If you now and then convert your DT to a skimmer - you will get both good gas exchange and nutrient transport However, some other explanations and claims are a little to much New Age for me.

Sincerely Lasse

Right, and although there is logic to it, it does not mean that they happen, or that they happen always, or even that the amount that happen is enough to be visible or beneficial.

For example, I have a good skimmer, I dose carbon, and I use filter socks. My ph upper and lower are high (8.45 - 8.11) what implies that I already have a good gas exchange. Would I still see benefits? What about scrubbing is that good or bad? If it is good is it good for all types of coral and livestock? How does it impact cyano (it would appear that would help to get it controlled, but does it?). What about dinoflagellates, would it spread it more or to clean it out? And so on...