Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.
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The validity of certain parts of this method has been verified by others, such as Diesel, in an earlier post.
I invite you to come onto my thread, where I will carry on posting from time to time and search, with the help of others, for the answers you seek...which we all seek
Were you asking me? I do agree that:
1) microbubbling can increase oxygenation, just like a skimmer does (but it depends on the air in the room. if doors are closed with lots of people, it may not help much).
2) microbubbling can float away organic waste to be removed by skimmer.
Both of these things can be achieved with 1) good waterflow and 2) a good skimmer. I am more interested in the actual effect of the microbubbles touching and penetrating the corals and fishes. There is very little long-term data on that, and no sound biologically plausible explanations yet. I was hoping to get some from Cruz but I find him a very unreliable source of knowledge. Chatty. Yes. Knowledgeable. No.
I will try to join your thread, especially for the pictures that you've been posting! Keep that coming.
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Squamosa
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is all true, well and documented, however, you are veering the argument away from the real point of the thread/s, which is not to point out what we already know but to see if the 2 points you mention are valid and have a basis in fact. Something I totally agree with is that this methodology needs more testing/analysis, but we are sitting at the cutting edge of reefing here.Trying to make an original, and valuable contribution to science.
And a lot more besides
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Yes, this is all true, well and documented, however, you are veering the argument away from the real point of the thread/s, which is not to point out what we already know but to see if the 2 points you mention are valid and have a basis in fact. Something I totally agree with is that this methodology needs more testing/analysis, but we are sitting at the cutting edge of reefing here.Trying to make an original, and valuable contribution to science.
And a lot more besides
I'm blowing your post up and you're still here. I thought we were going over there? lol
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Squamosa
Well-Known Member
I'm going over there now...slinking with tail between his legs!
Happy reefing on this one
john.m.cole3
cyclOps
true story. Following
When I join this forum – I got a message – Welcome to the friendly forum. I have been at RC before (the multichip thread) and after that experience I decide to only write in our Swedish forum. However - I thought that this thread is very interesting so I decide to participate but the development of the thread give me feelings of to be at RC again.
Why are people like me, Thalent and Randy and others so sceptical and want to know how it works in spite of the fact that at least I haven´t test the method. (However - If I get an outbreak of dinos – I´ll sure will test.)
I can only speak for myself. I have been working with complex biological system for many years – nearly all my life. There is somethings I have learned during this journey – you have always to questioning “old trues” but you must know what you are doing and always have a self-critical point of view. I know that every time I change one parameter - I can figure out at least 5 other parameters that will change too. And very often – one week after the changes – I have discovered at least changes in 3 – 4 parameters that I even did not know about!
To be a “doer” is good – they normally change the world – but it’s important to listen to people with knowledge – either practical or theoretical knowledge – in some few cases I have noticed that I have learned thing from them
My own knowledges has been built up from an endless row of mistakes (mostly my own) together with a theoretical base and discussions with others.
As we say in Sweden - A wise guy learns from his/hers mistake – but a smart guy learns from others mistakes.
This thread can give a lot of understanding of the micro/nano bubbles but it needs participant from all in a friendly atmosphere. I grow up under the era of Love, peace and understanding – this thread seems to at least change the last world to misunderstanding it was better back in the sixties
I hope that all notice that it is a lot of in this post
Sincerely Lasse
Why are people like me, Thalent and Randy and others so sceptical and want to know how it works in spite of the fact that at least I haven´t test the method. (However - If I get an outbreak of dinos – I´ll sure will test.)
I can only speak for myself. I have been working with complex biological system for many years – nearly all my life. There is somethings I have learned during this journey – you have always to questioning “old trues” but you must know what you are doing and always have a self-critical point of view. I know that every time I change one parameter - I can figure out at least 5 other parameters that will change too. And very often – one week after the changes – I have discovered at least changes in 3 – 4 parameters that I even did not know about!
To be a “doer” is good – they normally change the world – but it’s important to listen to people with knowledge – either practical or theoretical knowledge – in some few cases I have noticed that I have learned thing from them
My own knowledges has been built up from an endless row of mistakes (mostly my own) together with a theoretical base and discussions with others.
As we say in Sweden - A wise guy learns from his/hers mistake – but a smart guy learns from others mistakes.
This thread can give a lot of understanding of the micro/nano bubbles but it needs participant from all in a friendly atmosphere. I grow up under the era of Love, peace and understanding – this thread seems to at least change the last world to misunderstanding
it was better back in the sixties I hope that all notice that it is a lot of
in this postSincerely Lasse
When I join this forum – I got a message – Welcome to the friendly forum. I have been at RC before (the multichip thread) and after that experience I decide to only write in our Swedish forum. However - I thought that this thread is very interesting so I decide to participate but the development of the thread give me feelings of to be at RC again.
Why are people like me, Thalent and Randy and others so sceptical and want to know how it works in spite of the fact that at least I haven´t test the method. (However - If I get an outbreak of dinos – I´ll sure will test.)
I can only speak for myself. I have been working with complex biological system for many years – nearly all my life. There is somethings I have learned during this journey – you have always to questioning “old trues” but you must know what you are doing and always have a self-critical point of view. I know that every time I change one parameter - I can figure out at least 5 other parameters that will change too. And very often – one week after the changes – I have discovered at least changes in 3 – 4 parameters that I even did not know about!
To be a “doer” is good – they normally change the world – but it’s important to listen to people with knowledge – either practical or theoretical knowledge – in some few cases I have noticed that I have learned thing from them
My own knowledges has been built up from an endless row of mistakes (mostly my own) together with a theoretical base and discussions with others.
As we say in Sweden - A wise guy learns from his/hers mistake – but a smart guy learns from others mistakes.
This thread can give a lot of understanding of the micro/nano bubbles but it needs participant from all in a friendly atmosphere. I grow up under the era of Love, peace and understanding – this thread seems to at least change the last world to misunderstanding
I hope that all notice that it is a lot of
Sincerely Lasse
I agree with you brother.
Join a few of us at the other thread. We just want to test and find out what works the best.
It's Squamosa's thread. Nearly the same title. See you there.
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
When I join this forum – I got a message – Welcome to the friendly forum. I have been at RC before (the multichip thread) and after that experience I decide to only write in our Swedish forum. However - I thought that this thread is very interesting so I decide to participate but the development of the thread give me feelings of to be at RC again.
Why are people like me, Thalent and Randy and others so sceptical and want to know how it works in spite of the fact that at least I haven´t test the method. (However - If I get an outbreak of dinos – I´ll sure will test.)
I can only speak for myself. I have been working with complex biological system for many years – nearly all my life. There is somethings I have learned during this journey – you have always to questioning “old trues” but you must know what you are doing and always have a self-critical point of view. I know that every time I change one parameter - I can figure out at least 5 other parameters that will change too. And very often – one week after the changes – I have discovered at least changes in 3 – 4 parameters that I even did not know about!
To be a “doer” is good – they normally change the world – but it’s important to listen to people with knowledge – either practical or theoretical knowledge – in some few cases I have noticed that I have learned thing from them
My own knowledges has been built up from an endless row of mistakes (mostly my own) together with a theoretical base and discussions with others.
As we say in Sweden - A wise guy learns from his/hers mistake – but a smart guy learns from others mistakes.
This thread can give a lot of understanding of the micro/nano bubbles but it needs participant from all in a friendly atmosphere. I grow up under the era of Love, peace and understanding – this thread seems to at least change the last world to misunderstanding
I hope that all notice that it is a lot of
Sincerely Lasse
Here are some more
Ha en underbar dag
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
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Smaller bubbles will scatter more light and look more milky white down to some size below 1 micron where they will start to scatter less again, and eventually disappear when really small. So for most bubbles, "harder to see through" should mean more bubbles.
But as to what sizes are desirable, that's far harder to suggest since there are many different effects being discussed.
Bubbles to scrub off slime (if that happens) might need to be bigger and be rising fast enough to pull it along.
Bubbles getting coated with organics and causing a feeding response (and maybe feeding) may need to be of a size appropriate for what the creature normally eats.
I think all of the small bubbles likely come to O2 equilibration reasonably fast unless there is a lot of organic matter coating the bubble. CO2 necessarily takes substantially longer since it needs time to hydrate and dehydrate to equilibrate. That can take many seconds regardless of bubble size. Still smaller bubbles may not necessarily be a big advantage from an aeration standpoint once the bubbles are already fairly small.
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Daniel@R2R
Living the Reef Life
Guys, we're all for having deep and even "heated" debates regarding things that will advance this hobby. So feel free to go back and forth over the chemistry and functionality of this technique all you want. However, the insults and unfriendly tone that has been taken by more than one participant is not going to continue to be tolerated. Personal attacks need to stop. Our forum rules state:
Be Courteous:
We aim to ensure that the forum is an enjoyable place that you want to visit time and time again. Our underlying philosophy is that the strength of the member relationships we build here is what sets us apart from the other boards - we are friendlier, more civil, more insightful, more mature and more fun.
* R2R encourages the beneficial exchange of information, ideas, and opinions and we expect members to do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated.
* Trolling or cyber-bullying are NOT allowed and are grounds for account restriction or banishment. Harassment, stalking or predatory behavior will result in account suspension.
* We take the "be nice" rule VERY seriously! We do not tolerate ANY rudeness.
One HUGE thing that we want to distinguish R2R from many other outlets of social media is that we want everyone to feel welcome and respected. If we can't act like adults in here, this discussion will probably not go much further.
Be Courteous:
We aim to ensure that the forum is an enjoyable place that you want to visit time and time again. Our underlying philosophy is that the strength of the member relationships we build here is what sets us apart from the other boards - we are friendlier, more civil, more insightful, more mature and more fun.
* R2R encourages the beneficial exchange of information, ideas, and opinions and we expect members to do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated.
* Trolling or cyber-bullying are NOT allowed and are grounds for account restriction or banishment. Harassment, stalking or predatory behavior will result in account suspension.
* We take the "be nice" rule VERY seriously! We do not tolerate ANY rudeness.
One HUGE thing that we want to distinguish R2R from many other outlets of social media is that we want everyone to feel welcome and respected. If we can't act like adults in here, this discussion will probably not go much further.
Cruz_Arias
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I was referring to the DAF video for wastewater treatment. Lol misunderstanding to what video i was replying to... sorry
Thales
Valuable Member
So my first post on the other thread was post 81:
This was responded to thusly:
It would seem certain commentators on this forum clearly do not understand that this thread exists here in this format, solely to share my experiences and anecdotes on a methodology that is rapidly gaining ground, particularly in my home country.
I am not trying to sell anything or force a particular style of reef keeping on anyone. What ever works for you, stick with that and comment on the relevant threads elsewhere if you so wish.
Keep an open mind here, lest you be judged by certain people but then push on full steam ahead anyway
Hardly a friendly welcome to that discussion to a very neutral statement.
Cruz_Arias
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The science behind this, is that up until 2 years ago, we could detect nanobubbles with a laser refractometer and study their behavior.
And up until 5 years ago, we now can GENERATE Nanos... repeatedly
And up until 5 years ago, we now can GENERATE Nanos... repeatedly
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I was actually very excited about this thread. There is a great group of very capable, experienced and intelligent people participating here. If one wanted to pay for input of this level on any idea it would be very expensive. Now, it is sad that very little was discussed. Very little input to help the ones that are trying to get some test going at a hobby level was given.
So, yes we could try to write a proposal and get money to test this the right way. And if someone with expertise in this field is interested and know of funding opportunities for something like this I am up for collaboration.
That would be ideal and all, but for the time I have some questions to have a less strict, descriptive study about this that can fit the pocket of some of us:
How would you measure bubble size and density so we are comparing apples to apples?
What parameters would be interesting to be collected so we can try to have a meaningful interpretation?
Anyways, can you guys help us to brainstorm about this.
Oh, and as you all already figured, English is not my first language.... ;-)
So, yes we could try to write a proposal and get money to test this the right way. And if someone with expertise in this field is interested and know of funding opportunities for something like this I am up for collaboration.
That would be ideal and all, but for the time I have some questions to have a less strict, descriptive study about this that can fit the pocket of some of us:
How would you measure bubble size and density so we are comparing apples to apples?
What parameters would be interesting to be collected so we can try to have a meaningful interpretation?
Anyways, can you guys help us to brainstorm about this.
Oh, and as you all already figured, English is not my first language.... ;-)
Ok, Let's try this with a different approach.
About
1. Do you guys think it is important to know size and numbers of bubbles / gallon injected?
2. If so, do you believe this would work:
Using a Hanna ALK colorimeter to measure turbidity:
To know the capacity of my bubbling system, them probably I would use something like this:
FMS: freshly mixed salt water.
M0: measurement before bubbling
M20: measurement 20 minutes after bubbling
M0 min - FMS = A1
M20 min - FMS = A2
A2 - A1 = capacity of the system to produce micro-nano bubbles. (20 minutes is a subjective number, it might need to be changed).
Maybe also a good idea to test this in a lets say 5 gallon bucket (or 40 gallon tank) filled with FMS
3. Any idea how this could be improved? (be reasonable please)
About
1. Do you guys think it is important to know size and numbers of bubbles / gallon injected?
2. If so, do you believe this would work:
Using a Hanna ALK colorimeter to measure turbidity:
To know the capacity of my bubbling system, them probably I would use something like this:
FMS: freshly mixed salt water.
M0: measurement before bubbling
M20: measurement 20 minutes after bubbling
M0 min - FMS = A1
M20 min - FMS = A2
A2 - A1 = capacity of the system to produce micro-nano bubbles. (20 minutes is a subjective number, it might need to be changed).
Maybe also a good idea to test this in a lets say 5 gallon bucket (or 40 gallon tank) filled with FMS
3. Any idea how this could be improved? (be reasonable please)
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
I'm not sure there is going to be a way to do so easily at home. Almost any overly simple light scattering method we use (like optical density) will confound bubble size and number. Maybe optical density as a function of time in a cuvette where they rise and clear over time. But somehow one would want to compare two different values, such as 10% transmittance clearing 5% per minute vs 10% transmittance clearing 2.5% per minute. The latter likely has smaller bubbles, but does it have more bubbles?
It is not a home method, but more sophisticated light scattering is one good way. Dynamic light scattering machines, for example. Malvern makes than and I've used them, but not for bubbles.
http://www.malvern.com/en/industry-applications/sample-type-form/nanobubbles/
http://www.malvern.com/en/industry-applications/sample-type-form/nanobubbles/
Cruz_Arias
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@cb684
Brother... As you can see everyone here is EXTREMELY passionate in this hobby... Yes... sometimes name calling, jeering, trolling whatever...
We are human... Opinions are opinions... we all have them.
The thing about these bubbles (nano sized) is that there is so much more to the world than we realize... Quantum physics, Marine Biology (constantly evolving), Electrical Engineering ( Constantly Revising what is safe in the NFPA 70E)...
Ok... so people think they know bubbles... well this micro-nanobubble is the 4th state of gas that, for some reason is EXTREMELY STABLE IN NATURE... many scientists are scrambling at this very moment to understand these profound properties of these nanobubbles...
If reefing was cutting edge, I would suggest we STAY ON THE CUTTING EDGE.
FORGET ABOUT ME... SAVE OUR REEFS.
https://staff.aist.go.jp/m.taka/nano-bubble.pdf
Brother... As you can see everyone here is EXTREMELY passionate in this hobby... Yes... sometimes name calling, jeering, trolling whatever...
We are human... Opinions are opinions... we all have them.
The thing about these bubbles (nano sized) is that there is so much more to the world than we realize... Quantum physics, Marine Biology (constantly evolving), Electrical Engineering ( Constantly Revising what is safe in the NFPA 70E)...
Ok... so people think they know bubbles... well this micro-nanobubble is the 4th state of gas that, for some reason is EXTREMELY STABLE IN NATURE... many scientists are scrambling at this very moment to understand these profound properties of these nanobubbles...
If reefing was cutting edge, I would suggest we STAY ON THE CUTTING EDGE.
FORGET ABOUT ME... SAVE OUR REEFS.
https://staff.aist.go.jp/m.taka/nano-bubble.pdf
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