Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Thales,
What is your job title at the Public Aquarium with your nine years of experiance?

You can read about him at the aquarium web site:

https://steinhartaquarium.org/academy/exhibits/aquarium/staff/rross/

 

[Lowell Lemon]

You can read about him at the aquarium web site:

https://steinhartaquarium.org/academy/exhibits/aquarium/staff/rross/

Thanks Randy that gives perspective on the conversation and brings new understanding. I understand more of where Richard is coming from and why he states things the way he does.
This helps me to "seek to understand before being understood". (Stephen Covey)

 

[Lasse]

PLEASE start a build thread once you get the new tank. I would love to follow your reef!

I´m planning to do that but I´m afraid of creating tons of threads like this one.

Back here in Sweden - I´m well known for many odd ideas and that I never do as others do

However - normally I base my ideas from biological, microbiological, chemical or technical background. Many times I just want to stress a simple rule - There are many ways to skin a cat.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There are many ways to skin a cat.

Just please do not start a thread on that actual topic.

 

[Lasse]

Macro bubbles will help rid your tank of ich. It knocks the parasite off the fish. This causes the parasite to die before it can reproduce. T he macro bubbles will knock the eggs off the rocks and sand. The eggs will then attach to the negatively charged bubbles and rise to the surface, where it will go down the overflow. Your filter socks will catch some of the eggs/parasites as well as your skimmer. The negative charge on the bubbles will destroy the ability for the fetus to grow and for the parasites to reproduce. Kind of like a UV sterilizer works.

Micro bubbles attack ich from many different angles and is the quickest way to cure a tank. You need bubble sizes smaller then 20 microns for it to work.

satirical I suppose?


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Just please do not start a thread on that actual topic.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BlueCursor]

Ok I got the micro-nano nozzle, now waiting for the pump. I think I will get a O2 cylinder, I am afraid to use that nozzle with air. For that to work it will need to be under pressure (45PSI), so there is a real chance of increasing nitrogen concentration, right? LOL this is getting complicated, but still very interested to see what the micro-nano bubbles will do.

For those of you worrying about excess O2 or N2 dissolved in the water when using this nozzle, there is no need for worry. If you understand gas solubility in solution under pressure, you will see what happens in this particular care:

The pressure is only 45 PSI (that's about 3 ATM or roughly 3 bar). Second, the water is only under that pressure very briefly, then it comes out and returns to about 1 ATM. Since it was under pressure for a short period of time, we are only looking at a very minute amount of 02 and N2 dissolving into the water.

The real problem only exists when water is under pressure for a long time! For example, in systems where there is high pressure in the pipes and the water is in those pipes for a long time because of long runs. In our aquariums, the time is minimal (less than a minute for even a long run) and the pressure is minimal. Assuming your sump is in the basement, you only have about 15 feet of rise which is 1.5 ATM at the basement floor, and 1.25 ATM when the water gets half way up to the tank, and 1 ATM when the water reaches the tank. There just isn't enough time for it to do any damage.

For a scuba diver, 3 ATM is 66 feet down in sea water. A person can stay down there for an hour and come up without having the bends. That is how slowly N2 dissolves into a liquid (in this case blood which excels at absorbing gas) at 3 ATM. In your tank, the nano nozzle water is under pressure for seconds at most, even counting being pumped upstairs from a basement to a tank.

 

[McMullen]

I don't have a cool Apex with a pH probe. Could someone please just demonstrate bubbling using your apex probe. Maybe turn the skimmer off for a day, then measure, then bubble and measure. Then maybe adjust power heads to water surface and measure. I would gladly do this just don't have probe. Can we at least get something easy?! It'll take three days....

So many are critizing "Thales," and he is pointing out some wild claims and asking "how do we know?" I don't need a million dollar lab tested study, but give me something.

There is tons being made on aminos not just reefing, but health and nutrition too, guess what, it's just protein. Some see positive results dosing, I wanted to......I wanted to badly, especially when Julian Sprung endorced them, just not getting benefit. Does that mean they don't work? Or, I feed so heavy my coral already get adequate nutrition? I'm not sure!! My point is, bubbling may solve "A," problem, but we must as hobbiest begin testing using hobby level equipment.......pH probe.

 

[Lasse]

For those of you worrying about excess O2 or N2 dissolved in the water when using this nozzle, there is no need for worry. If you understand gas solubility in solution under pressure, you will see what happens in this particular care:

The pressure is only 45 PSI (that's about 3 ATM or roughly 3 bar). Second, the water is only under that pressure very briefly, then it comes out and returns to about 1 ATM. Since it was under pressure for a short period of time, we are only looking at a very minute amount of 02 and N2 dissolving into the water.

The real problem only exists when water is under pressure for a long time! For example, in systems where there is high pressure in the pipes and the water is in those pipes for a long time because of long runs. In our aquariums, the time is minimal (less than a minute for even a long run) and the pressure is minimal. Assuming your sump is in the basement, you only have about 15 feet of rise which is 1.5 ATM at the basement floor, and 1.25 ATM when the water gets half way up to the tank, and 1 ATM when the water reaches the tank. There just isn't enough time for it to do any damage.

For a scuba diver, 3 ATM is 66 feet down in sea water. A person can stay down there for an hour and come up without having the bends. That is how slowly N2 dissolves into a liquid (in this case blood which excels at absorbing gas) at 3 ATM. In your tank, the nano nozzle water is under pressure for seconds at most, even counting being pumped upstairs from a basement to a tank.

According to my experiences – this statement is not completely true. If you have to transport water in a pipe - the pressure will be the same through the whole pipe – it is not the same as if you dive down in the water as you describe it. It is the pressure in the pipes that important because the saturation point for every gas is higher under pressure. When this water come out in the aquarium – suddenly the water is under normal pressure (1 atm) and the gas will be oversaturated in the aquarium water. If the gas does not get consumed or aerated out – you will get problems. I have worked with system that transport pure oxygen at fish farms. The water has only been in the pipes for minutes but it has been possible to rise the oxygen content 2 – 3 times with only a pressure of 2 – 2,5 bar.

I have also experienced GBD in systems that has suck in air at the suction side, transport time 1 – 2 minutes and pressure 1,5 – 2 Bar. It is not the time the nitrogen gas will be in the pipes that’s important – it’s the time the oversaturation of N2 will stand in the open aquarium or fish tank (before it is aerated out) that is important

However – if aquarium pumps can create a pressure high enough is an open question. I believe that the most powerful return pumps can do it – so be careful. A high pressure pump at 3 bar – no question.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flyinryan75]

PE = Polyp Extension
ORP = Oxygen Redox Potential

I take it that your tank is relatively new. Are you having any issues that would warrant trying bubbling?

If your tank is new, I would recommend letting it mature before trying a new technique such as bubbling.

My tank is a year old and has cycled already. I've been interested in this topic and have been following along. I just ordered some lee's limewood and I'm going to give it a shot. I recently rid my tank of GHAlgae via vinager dosing and manual removal but now I have what seems to be cyano and some sort of clear bubbles and that has been a challenge to get rid of. I want to try bubbles before peroxide. So on that note ill take note and follow up later on the cyano vs nano/microbubbles

 

[Chibils]

My tank is a year old and has cycled already. I've been interested in this topic and have been following along. I just ordered some lee's limewood and I'm going to give it a shot. I recently rid my tank of GHAlgae via vinager dosing and manual removal but now I have what seems to be cyano and some sort of clear bubbles and that has been a challenge to get rid of. I want to try bubbles before peroxide. So on that note ill take note and follow up later on the cyano vs nano/microbubbles

Please take lots of pictures for a week or two (or longer if you're willing) before starting! Being able to see shots of a stable reef over a period of time (for reference of growth, changes in cyano etc) followed by a few weeks or months of after shots would go a long way toward showing that this really does what we all hope it does.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't have a cool Apex with a pH probe. Could someone please just demonstrate bubbling using your apex probe. Maybe turn the skimmer off for a day, then measure, then bubble and measure. Then maybe adjust power heads to water surface and measure. I would gladly do this just don't have probe. Can we at least get something easy?! It'll take three days....
.

I did this experiment with my skimmer. Yes it is easy!
In my case, more aeration (skimmer) lowered the pH because my tank ran at a CO2 deficit to the air, due to my use of limewater (kalkwasser).

 

[McMullen]

Thanks Randy!

Would the simple observational "study," I proposed add to the discussion?

I suspect most reefers use skimmers, but perhaps for those who run without a skimmer?

 

[anit77]

Randy, was it a big drop? I know that most are running a skimmer, just wondering if bubbling this way would see the same type of drop when using kalk and their skimmer.

 

[flyinryan75]

Please take lots of pictures for a week or two (or longer if you're willing) before starting! Being able to see shots of a stable reef over a period of time (for reference of growth, changes in cyano etc) followed by a few weeks or months of after shots would go a long way toward showing that this really does what we all hope it does.

I will do my best. Time and a crappy camera are a factor.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy, was it a big drop? I know that most are running a skimmer, just wondering if bubbling this way would see the same type of drop when using kalk and their skimmer.

Here's an exact quote from an article of mine so I did not have to remember it exactly:

A number of years ago, when experimenting with my skimmer (an ETS 800 Gemini on a 90-gallon reef aquarium), I shut it off for several months to see what effects that would have (potentially including water yellowing, average pH rising, diurnal pH range expansion, etc). The most noticeable effect was that the overall pH rose 0.1 to 0.2 pH units. In fact, it rose above pH 8.5 for much of the time. Because I use limewater (kalkwasser) to supplement calcium and alkalinity, much of that rise was due to the demand for carbon dioxide from the hydroxide in the limewater:

OH- + CO2 --> HCO3-

Without the extra aeration provided by the skimmer, not enough carbon dioxide could be drawn into my system. Even if this aeration were the only useful effect of skimming, it would be worth it for my system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks Randy!

Would the simple observational "study," I proposed add to the discussion?

I suspect most reefers use skimmers, but perhaps for those who run without a skimmer?

Yes, I think so. Every tank and home air environment is a bit different so pH effects of aeration can not only be different magnitudes, but different directions, even different directions different times of day.

 

[cb684]

For those of you worrying about excess O2 or N2 dissolved in the water when using this nozzle, there is no need for worry. If you understand gas solubility in solution under pressure, you will see what happens in this particular care:

The pressure is only 45 PSI (that's about 3 ATM or roughly 3 bar). Second, the water is only under that pressure very briefly, then it comes out and returns to about 1 ATM. Since it was under pressure for a short period of time, we are only looking at a very minute amount of 02 and N2 dissolving into the water.

The real problem only exists when water is under pressure for a long time! For example, in systems where there is high pressure in the pipes and the water is in those pipes for a long time because of long runs. In our aquariums, the time is minimal (less than a minute for even a long run) and the pressure is minimal. Assuming your sump is in the basement, you only have about 15 feet of rise which is 1.5 ATM at the basement floor, and 1.25 ATM when the water gets half way up to the tank, and 1 ATM when the water reaches the tank. There just isn't enough time for it to do any damage.

For a scuba diver, 3 ATM is 66 feet down in sea water. A person can stay down there for an hour and come up without having the bends. That is how slowly N2 dissolves into a liquid (in this case blood which excels at absorbing gas) at 3 ATM. In your tank, the nano nozzle water is under pressure for seconds at most, even counting being pumped upstairs from a basement to a tank.

I guess my concern is that I will use a nozzle that was built to generate micro-nano bubbles (not limewood) and I am not sure we have a good idea of what air micro-nano bubbles would do in a small system as my quarantine tank (about 200 gallons). The long standing of those bubbles in the water column might turn out to be important. So, just to make sure I am clear, I am not going to do the same thing others are doing so far.

That is why I said I was going to use O2.

Here is the system: http://nebula.wsimg.com/f261b5bf5a3...97E504A19CBAE841C&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

 

[Thales]

 

[anit77]

I guess my concern is that I will use a nozzle that was built to generate micro-nano bubbles (not limewood) and I am not sure we have a good idea of what air micro-nano bubbles would do in a small system as my quarantine tank (about 200 gallons). The long standing of those bubbles in the water column might turn out to be important. So, just to make sure I am clear, I am not going to do the same thing others are doing so far.

That is why I said I was going to use O2.

Here is the system: http://nebula.wsimg.com/f261b5bf5a3...97E504A19CBAE841C&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Be careful if you do go with pure O2. It is my understanding that O2 will not remove CO2 from the water. So if there's livestock in there you'll need another form of aeration though a bubbler or breaking the surface with a powerhead. 200g is a lot though so it should be ok if not left on too long.

Do you have a regulator to dispense to O2 from the cylinder tank?