Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Cruz_Arias]

I'm apparently not following what the whole discussion of silicate is about. Can you clarify? Do you think it has any relationship to bubbling?

There was a comment that said that running MBs and NBs through an EcoAqualizer (sarcasm understood from the rest of the comment) "May be Synergistic"

Though we are actually seeing physical results from MB's and NB's (anecdotal) I was stating that the EcoAqualizer was a "good concept" gone wrong in cost cutting in manufacturing and application.

The relationship between the EA and MB Aeration is isolated from each other in this thread... I don't want to compound to the confusion, Randy... LOL

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There was a comment that said that running MBs and NBs through an EcoAqualizer (sarcasm understood from the rest of the comment) "May be Synergistic"

Though we are actually seeing physical results from MB's and NB's (anecdotal) I was stating that the EcoAqualizer was a "good concept" gone wrong in cost cutting in manufacturing and application.

The relationship between the EA and MB Aeration is isolated from each other in this thread... I don't want to compound to the confusion, Randy... LOL

OK, I just didn't understand how silicate fit into this discussion since they are not part of any of these processes as far as I understand.

 

[SantaMonica]

We saw this whole bubbling thing coming ages ago

 

[DanConnor]

"Randy, looking back, do you have any regrets about your life?"

"I shouldn't have spent so much time on the micro-bubbles threaaaa....ggggggkk"

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Okay, I'll try wooden!

Any update, McMullen? Maybe I would be able to help?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

We saw this whole bubbling thing coming ages ago

Yes we did... but the newer hobbyists forgot it. We wanted to bring it back with a little more direction, placement, and duration than just "dropping it in the water"

 

[acolotto]

has anyone ever microbubbled their tank for a yr and still doing it, and is their tank is still healthy and thriving? Whats your opinions and observations on it? Seems everyone that suggests for people to try it have only been doing it for a month or a couple months?

Also why have none of the claims ever been proven? Seems it would be simple enough to get an orp probe, ph probe, and a par meter, you know since apex has one of each.

Why is causing your corals to remove their slime coat a good thing? I dose KZ Flatworm stop in my tank, which DOES NOT KILL AEFW, it causes coral (acros) to grow a thicker mucus slime coat so that the AEFW cannot harm the acro. This makes me believe that coral slime coats are built for protection, so how does removing the coat every night help? Seems like you are leaving your corals vulnerable, then asking a lot of them of the rebuild that slime coat. Does them having to rebuild this slime coat, take away energy they would be using on building skeleton if they were not being encouraged to remove the slime coat by micro bubbling? I know these ones would be really difficult to figure out the answer to but i feel like its a good question to think about.

Im not a scientist, just a hobbyist that would like to do whats best for his tank. Not bashing just some of my questions I have never asked or gotten an answer too, so please don't try to spin this as me bashing the concept as I have no where enough information on the subject to form an opinion

And do not tell me to do it, im not the one pushing it, why would I produce the data? I just would like some data, instead of just because this guy says so. I'm just a skeptical reefer looking for some answers to my questions. Please do not get offended, defensive, or think im saying it doesnt work, I just really dont know much about it and these are my questions. Thank you in advance for any response

 

[Cruz_Arias]

has anyone ever microbubbled their tank for a yr and still doing it, and is their tank is still healthy and thriving? Whats your opinions and observations on it? Seems everyone that suggests for people to try it have only been doing it for a month or a couple months?

Also why have none of the claims ever been proven? Seems it would be simple enough to get an orp probe, ph probe, and a par meter, you know since apex has one of each.

Why is causing your corals to remove their slime coat a good thing? I dose KZ Flatworm stop in my tank, which DOES NOT KILL AEFW, it causes coral (acros) to grow a thicker mucus slime coat so that the AEFW cannot harm the acro. This makes me believe that coral slime coats are built for protection, so how does removing the coat every night help? Seems like you are leaving your corals vulnerable, then asking a lot of them of the rebuild that slime coat. Does them having to rebuild this slime coat, take away energy they would be using on building skeleton if they were not being encouraged to remove the slime coat by micro bubbling? I know these ones would be really difficult to figure out the answer to but i feel like its a good question to think about.

Im not a scientist, just a hobbyist that would like to do whats best for his tank. Not bashing just some of my questions I have never asked or gotten an answer too, so please don't try to spin this as me bashing the concept as I have no where enough information on the subject to form an opinion

And do not tell me to do it, im not the one pushing it, why would I produce the data? I just would like some data, instead of just because this guy says so. I'm just a skeptical reefer looking for some answers to my questions. Please do not get offended, defensive, or think im saying it doesnt work, I just really dont know much about it and these are my questions. Thank you in advance for any response

Please see post [HASHTAG]#1168[/HASHTAG] as the most recent "data" on page 59 of this thread

I'll try to link to other graphs and apex charts as well as I find them.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I'm not suggesting the result is a benefit, or even that it is true, just that it is testable and plausible, rather than some of the obviously incorrect pseudoscience that Elegant Corals LLC posts, such as:

"Solubility of ions in a solution depend on electro negativity of the solute (water in this case)... water is not just water... it is a stream of life giving electricity..."

and

"The bubbles rubbing up against each other are like balloons or water droplets in the storm clouds... as they pass each other and rub and bump into each other, static electricity is generated... that's the difference between a stagnant dead lake and a dynamic healthy lake... moving water..."

"The likely reason for the long-lived presence of nanobubbles is that the nanobubble gas/liquid interface is charged, introducing an opposing force to the surface tension, so slowing or preventing their dissipation. Curved aqueous surfaces may introduce a surface charge due to water’s molecular structure or its dissociation. It is clear that the presence of like charges at the interface will reduce the internal pressure and the apparent surface tension, with charge repulsion acting in the opposite direction to the surface minimization due to surface tension. Any effect may be increased by the presence of additional charged materials that favor the gas-liquid interface, such as OH- ions at neutral or basic pH or applying negative ions with an anti-static gun that reduces nanobubble diameter (see below) [2066]. This charge similarity, together with the lack of van der Waals attraction (the cavities possessing close to zero electron density) tends to prevent nanobubbles from coalescencing."

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html

 

[Lasse]

@Cruz_Arias

You still links to articles on the nano-bubbles in order to strengthen your arguments. But in my eyes, you still have not proven or demonstrated that in reality it is created nano-bubbles with the methods that you advocate.

For me, the crux of the question is that I do not believe that is possible to create nano-bubbles with an air stone of wood together with a water pump with a relatively low pressure.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Cruz_Arias]

@Cruz_Arias

You still links to articles on the nano-bubbles in order to strengthen your arguments. But in my eyes, you still have not proven or demonstrated that in reality it is created nano-bubbles with the methods that you advocate.

For me, the crux of the question is that I do not believe that is possible to create nano-bubbles with an air stone of wood together with a water pump with a relatively low pressure.

Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse, I am linking further SCIENTIFIC studies being done concurrently or have been done in the recent past... I have posted up Apex pH graphs as well.

You're statements are speculation of skepticism, however, I'm ok with that.

You are familiar with the physical science behind bubbles, yes?

If you are, then you would understand that bubbles CAN dissolve into water... generating the atmospheric (low pressure) bubbles in the sump and getting the smallest size possible to start is a good basis for us...

As the very very small bubble travels through the return pipe (slightly under head pressure the return pump is pushing against) this creates an increase in dissolution of gas into the water column... meaning, the bubble starts to shrink... even to the unbelievable nano size... hence we call this the Micro-Nano Bubble method...

Starts off Micro... Shrinks down to Nano... at least a few of them...

Also if you are familiar with freshwater planted tanks, you would be able to understand the very very similar principle on how we dissolve CO2 into water.

In our application it is adding atmospheric back in and driving CO2 out.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

@Cruz_Arias

You still links to articles on the nano-bubbles in order to strengthen your arguments. But in my eyes, you still have not proven or demonstrated that in reality it is created nano-bubbles with the methods that you advocate.

For me, the crux of the question is that I do not believe that is possible to create nano-bubbles with an air stone of wood together with a water pump with a relatively low pressure.

Sincerely Lasse

Just because YOU don't believe it can be done... does not mean it has not been done already, my friend.
Your disbelief is NOT the basis of FACT.
Rather it is not understanding or seeing something so simplistic is able to have a positive impact in the reefing hobby.

Not singling you out Lasse. You're a nice bloke.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Just because YOU don't believe it can be done... does not mean it has not been done already, my friend.
Your disbelief is NOT the basis of FACT.

I think what Lassie is pointing out is that the same applies in the reverse to you Cruz. Just because you believe it can be done with a simple airstone (just an airstone is the key there) does not mean that is has been done.
Your belief also does not make it fact.

There still is no proof that any percentage of the bubbles being created are actually nano bubbles.

 

[Lasse]

No one of the scientific articles about nano bubbles has describe such a method like yours in order to create nano-bubbles. Your last link state.

Nanobubbles can be made by electrolysis [974], by the introduction of gas into water at a high shear rate [1618, 2306], from smaller bubbles containing volatile liquids [2483] , by saturation at higher pressures followed by pressure drop or by saturation at low temperatures followed by fast temperature increase jump.

If your simple methode works - I think it should be a sensation in the academic world - so for your own sake - prove that you can create nanobubbles with help of a wodden air stone and a simple aquarium pump.

I do not doubt that bubbling in the DT help the degassing, I do not doubt that you sometimes can flocculate organic matter with the method – but all of these things can be explained by well-known principles and you do not need nano-bubbles in order to explain this. After reading a little about real nano-bubbles properties I start thinking that – maybe it is our luck that the bubble method does not create real nano-bubbles!

This part of your link is also interesting. I have not access to the original article but it looks like nano-bubbles not works well in saltwater

The presence of salt ions adversely affects nanobubble stability causing aggregation followed by coalescence at higher salt concentrations [1435]. The aggregation behavior appears similar to that of the salting out of colloidal particles due to the screening of the particle charge by the ionic strength of the solution. Coalescence is due to changes at the gas-water interface

Link to the original article.

I'm no chemist, but it seems that nano-bubbles are not particularly stable in saltwater. The scientist tested 80 nM (NaCl) saltwater and I think that you normally calculate that sea water contain between 500 and 600 nM NaCl

Sincerely Lasse

 

[TrPPnN]

Cruz actually made sense with the pressurization in the return pipe. It acts as a gas dissolution chamber.

It forces gas to dissolve from microbubbles into even smaller bubbles.

Check out some planted tank forums in regards to dissolving co2 into the water column. Add enough head pressure and you get smaller bubbles.
But what the heck do I know. LOL

 

[TrPPnN]

Instead of speculation and guessing that things aren't happening, I think now would be the time for those who claim it'snot possible to try it.

I didn't believe it until I tried it. He's right. The bubbles started off very very fine. By the time it exited the return nozzles to the DT, they were even smaller and it actually looked like smoke.

I can't explain it, but it happened.
How, I don't know other than speculating and normal gas-water dissolution principles.

 

[TrPPnN]

We saw this whole bubbling thing coming ages ago

I think Cruz got the delivery and application down pretty good and repeatable.

The only disappointment I have is that there is no good looking device to replicate this yet. LOL

Hope he has a patent on this. Hahaha

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I think what Lassie is pointing out is that the same applies in the reverse to you Cruz. Just because you believe it can be done with a simple airstone (just an airstone is the key there) does not mean that is has been done.
Your belief also does not make it fact.

There still is no proof that any percentage of the bubbles being created are actually nano bubbles.

The probability is clearly evident jyst based on the pH increases. This shows dissolution of gas coming from the vet fine bubbles.

We also showed a photo of micron sized bubbles using an LED flashlight and what was demonstrated using a laser pointer in Anzai Kantesu's video.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Cruz actually made sense with the pressurization in the return pipe. It acts as a gas dissolution chamber.

It forces gas to dissolve from microbubbles into even smaller bubbles.

Check out some planted tank forums in regards to dissolving co2 into the water column. Add enough head pressure and you get smaller bubbles.
But what the heck do I know. LOL

I'm glad that made sense to some one. Lol. Thank you again!

 

[Cruz_Arias]

No one of the scientific articles about nano bubbles has describe such a method like yours in order to create nano-bubbles. Your last link state.



If your simple methode works - I think it should be a sensation in the academic world - so for your own sake - prove that you can create nanobubbles with help of a wodden air stone and a simple aquarium pump.

I do not doubt that bubbling in the DT help the degassing, I do not doubt that you sometimes can flocculate organic matter with the method – but all of these things can be explained by well-known principles and you do not need nano-bubbles in order to explain this. After reading a little about real nano-bubbles properties I start thinking that – maybe it is our luck that the bubble method does not create real nano-bubbles!

This part of your link is also interesting. I have not access to the original article but it looks like nano-bubbles not works well in saltwater


Link to the original article.

I'm no chemist, but it seems that nano-bubbles are not particularly stable in saltwater. The scientist tested 80 nM (NaCl) saltwater and I think that you normally calculate that sea water contain between 500 and 600 nM NaCl

Sincerely Lasse

I guess that's what makes an inventor an inventor and not just a user.

And it takes calculated deductions and a lot of revisited theories and experience to make something out of nothing.