MindStream Monitor Update & Future Plans

MnFish1 · Dec 17, 2019

TheOne said:
This is why I paypal everything. Chances are if you haven't received the product within 60 days then you aren't going to. You must file a paypal dispute before 60 days are up.

At least according to PayPal you're comment above may be incorrect. Just posting this - so others may not be dissuaded from making a claim: My question is also whether PayPal is better protection than a credit card.

How to open a dispute
If you purchased the item from one of our merchants, follow these simple steps:

Log in to your PayPal account.
Open a dispute in the Resolution Center within 180 calendar days of your purchase.
Click “Dispute a Transaction.”
Select item dispute.

Be aware that disputes must be opened within 180 days of your payment date, and that you and the seller will have 20 days to work things out.
How to escalate a dispute claim
If your initial attempt to resolve the problem with the seller is unsuccessful, you can escalate your case to a claim.
Here's how:

Log in to your PayPal account.
Click on your existing case in the Resolution Center.
Select “File a Claim.”

You must file your claim within 20 days of when the dispute was first opened. Then, we’ll review your case and try to provide a final decision within 30 days.

pdxmonkeyboy · Dec 17, 2019

lexinverts said:
Did you order a MindStream, Brian? Glad to hear you got your money back if you did.

I didn't.. I am just being "that guy"

sharpimage · Dec 17, 2019

If they are bankrupt and laid off their staff, there is no money left to refund. Your only recourse is to charge back through the medium you paid, be it credit card or paypal or whatever. There will be no recourse to the company as there are no assets and you won't be able to puncture the corporate veil. No lawyer will take the case unless you pay them by the hour.

If you can't get your money back from your cc or paypal, it sucks, but it is gone. No future buyer, or investor has any obligations to anything the SAI said or promised. No future disks or server space.

It is what it is at this point.

MnFish1 · Dec 17, 2019

sharpimage said:
If they are bankrupt and laid off their staff, there is no money left to refund. Your only recourse is to charge back through the medium you paid, be it credit card or paypal or whatever. There will be no recourse to the company as there are no assets and you won't be able to puncture the corporate veil. No lawyer will take the case unless you pay them by the hour.

If you can't get your money back from your cc or paypal, it sucks, but it is gone. No future buyer, or investor has any obligations to anything the SAI said or promised. No future disks or server space.

It is what it is at this point.

I do not feel you're correct - until bankruptcy procedures, etc are all taken care of - there is no way to say this - for sure. There may be only a very small likelihood of there being assets to distribute - but neither you nor I know...

I agree 1000% that anyone affected shoudl costact their credit card, no matter what the date - because depending o n the card - rules vary - and I would find it unlikely that a card would deny a claim of this type.

BTW - if my card did so - I would be getting a new card. Thats why you pay fees to credit card companies yearly...

BTW 2 - Its also a good reason why using a debit card is NOT a good idea - because the buyer protections are far worse.

kzp · Dec 17, 2019

ScottR said:
I don’t think they purposely had done this - take new customers money just to make existing customers happy with a continuation of service. I think they did believe and hoped that they would get back on their feet. However, that wasn’t the case. They did mislead new customers but I doubt it was done with malicious intent.

Except for one caveat--when they cut off the on-line store to new investors, they said that they were in a good financial position. This was clearly very misleading at the very least, and perhaps an outright untruth. People such as myself would have requested a refund back then if they had disclosed the truth. Instead, I missed the 60 day deadline to file with my credit card company, and now I'm just praying that I get my money back. Furthermore, the CEO admitted that they began running out of money when they cut-off the new orders on the on-line store. This certainly implies that the company, at that point, was being sustained by new orders even when they could not fulfill orders even from those customers such as myself who ordered ON THE VERY FIRST DATE the on-line store was open (7/1/'19). Think about that for a moment--the company runs out of money and folds even BEFORE they could fulfill all orders from its very 1st day of operation on 7/1/'19!!!! I can't be the only one who finds this outrageous.

robbyg · Dec 17, 2019

MnFish1 said:
I do not feel you're correct - until bankruptcy procedures, etc are all taken care of - there is no way to say this - for sure. There may be only a very small likelihood of there being assets to distribute - but neither you nor I know...

They are not Bankrupt. I don't even see that as a possibility since the investors are very wealthy and would most not likely not want to have their names associated with that. The money they invested in SAI is not even a blip on their financial radar. They are just trying to dispose of the asset in a way that gives them maximum return and at the same time hopefully keeps the product going.

Oldreefer44 · Dec 17, 2019

Investors are not responsible for debt.

MnFish1 · Dec 17, 2019

robbyg said:
They are not Bankrupt. I don't even see that as a possibility since the investors are very wealthy and would most not likely not want to have their names associated with that. The money they invested in SAI is not even a blip on their financial radar. They are just trying to dispose of the asset in a way that gives them maximum return and at the same time hopefully keeps the product going.

The investors are not bankrupt - the company/corporation may or may not be. If they are - there will be a proceeding - and various creditors - will divide up 'whats left' - this will not be done 'today or tomorrow' - unless they sell to another larger company.

The reason credit cards give refunds - is that they can go after the company/corporation for all of their clients (plus they have insurance + in my instance - my yearly fee is 1/2 the price of the Mindstream).

PS - I feel bad - because I had gotten a refund from SAI for 99.99 on my CC - informed them of it - but they still credited my card provisionally for the entire amount. If they get it finalized - I will contact my CC - and make sure that they take that away from my credit

robbyg · Dec 17, 2019

OLDREEFER44 said:
Investors are not responsible for debt.

Yes but you know what I mean. This is not a public company. Its three guys who own 99% of the place. Anything that happens in court is going to have their name all over it.

robbyg · Dec 17, 2019

MnFish1 said:
The reason credit cards give refunds - is that they can go after the company/corporation for all of their clients (plus they have insurance + in my instance - my yearly fee is 1/2 the price of the Mindstream).

Say whaaa!!!
Your paying $500 a year for your annual fee!! What do you have an Unobtanium Credit Card

Joe Rice · Dec 17, 2019

robbyg said:
They are not Bankrupt. I don't even see that as a possibility since the investors are very wealthy and would most not likely not want to have their names associated with that. The money they invested in SAI is not even a blip on their financial radar. They are just trying to dispose of the asset in a way that gives them maximum return and at the same time hopefully keeps the product going.

This got me wondering about startup failures and bankruptcy. Did a bit of web searching and found this article:

Is Bankruptcy Right For Failing Business

Checklist for shutting down a failing business if bankruptcy isn't on the table.

www.bankruptcyinbrief.com

I had always assumed that when a company went under, it always declared bankruptcy but it appears not to be the case. Management may attempt to liquidate the company's assets and negotiate directly with creditors. According to the article there are advantages and risks of this though.

If the owners really do dig into their own personal wealth to make creditors whole, well, a big tip o' the hat to them, but it's certainly not a common practice.

MnFish1 · Dec 17, 2019

robbyg said:
Yes but you know what I mean. This is not a public company. Its three guys who own 99% of the place. Anything that happens in court is going to have their name all over it.

This is not entirely true. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/corporate-veil.html

An investor - or owner - take Donald Trump for example - has had companies that are bankrupt - but - it didnt affect him personally - or some of the people from shark tank - who made bad investments - whose companies went under. This does not reflect on them 'as people' - it was just a 'bad investment'.

MnFish1 · Dec 17, 2019

robbyg said:
Say whaaa!!!
Your paying $500 a year for your annual fee!! What do you have an Unobtanium Credit Card

No - actually its 495

..... But that said - its repaid me many times over.

sharpimage · Dec 17, 2019

MnFish1 said:
I do not feel you're correct - until bankruptcy procedures, etc are all taken care of - there is no way to say this - for sure. There may be only a very small likelihood of there being assets to distribute - but neither you nor I know...

I agree 1000% that anyone affected shoudl costact their credit card, no matter what the date - because depending o n the card - rules vary - and I would find it unlikely that a card would deny a claim of this type.

BTW - if my card did so - I would be getting a new card. Thats why you pay fees to credit card companies yearly...

BTW 2 - Its also a good reason why using a debit card is NOT a good idea - because the buyer protections are far worse.

Correct, they probably have not gone through bankruptcy proceedings yet, but it it would be foolish to think they would voluntarily give refunds at this point.

robbyg · Dec 17, 2019

sharpimage said:
Correct, they probably have not gone through bankruptcy proceedings yet, but it it would be foolish to think they would voluntarily give refunds at this point.

They might do it if the company is sold out to an entity that plans on running it as is. I would imagine that anyone buying it to continue the product would make that provision as part of the deal. I seriously doubt that there are many people left who did not get a refund via CC or Paypal. Only those people who actually got a unit are left in limbo for now.

robbyg · Dec 17, 2019

MnFish1 said:
This is not entirely true. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/corporate-veil.html

An investor - or owner - take Donald Trump for example - has had companies that are bankrupt - but - it didnt affect him personally - or some of the people from shark tank - who made bad investments - whose companies went under. This does not reflect on them 'as people' - it was just a 'bad investment'.

That might be a bad example

Those bankruptcy cases have been used by the press over and over to show his business chops are not very good. I think that's why most wealthy people do not want to have their names associated with bankruptcy, especially if they can avoid it by throwing a tiny bit of money at the problem. (Tiny for them

)

MnFish1 · Dec 17, 2019

sharpimage said:
Correct, they probably have not gone through bankruptcy proceedings yet, but it it would be foolish to think they would voluntarily give refunds at this point.

Why? Have you bought a unit - I have. Have you researched the law a little (I'm not a lawyer) - I have. Im not criticizing you - just wondering where you're coming from. And - I never said anyone would give 'voluntary' refunds. By definition - at this point - there are probably multiple people wanting money from the company - so lets not confuse terms. I have said the way to go at this point is to go to your CC - appeal if needed - and fight to get your CC to fight for you.

I don't think sending an email to the CEO will get anyone a refund, Sorry if I implied that

MnFish1 · Dec 17, 2019

sharpimage said:
Correct, they probably have not gone through bankruptcy proceedings yet, but it it would be foolish to think they would voluntarily give refunds at this point.

PS just to make sure we're talking about the same thing - It would be credit card companies and other creditors that would be going to SAI to ask for refunds - not individuals. No one knows their contact information. So - it seems like you are making a false argument - that no one suggested? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding

sharpimage · Dec 17, 2019

I was under the impression some people are waiting or hoping that sai initiates a refund. I think we both agree this will never happen. No argument here. I was on the fence about buying one for so long that it all collapsed, so I have no skin in this game

sharpimage · Dec 17, 2019

And most likely, anyone buying sai, would be buying patents and or machinery and tangible assets. They would open a new company with a dba as mindstream. Or something along those lines. I have open, bought, sold, closed enough companies to know the basics