I think that at this point, we can all agree that there may have been actual fraud in this case. This is what I was insinuating and suspecting in many of my posts, though I truly wish that my instincts were incorrect. That being said, I am seriously considering reporting this company to legal authorities. I suspect that laws may have been broken. If so, then people need to be held accountable. I mentioned in several posts a similar case in which the CEO was sentenced to 25 years (the maker of Enzyte).
Mindstream
- Thread starter Murica
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Actually, in the CEO’s last public announcement, where he mentioned that that they were cutting off new orders, I’m pretty sure he mentioned that SAI was well capitalized (I’d have to go back and read it). If he did say that, then he was lying, which would make it fraud.
ca1ore
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OK, but any savvy investor should be doing their own due diligence, including a TAM estimate, to ensure that what the vendor is telling them is reasonable and verifiable.
I don't know the facts of this case, including whether the company has in fact declared bankruptcy (and what kind), but presumably there are no assets to liquidate so the unsecured creditors like prepaid customers are almost certainly out of luck beyond redress with the CC company. Whether there's fraud or just a failed or bad busienss is anyones guess.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I would you appreciate for you to explain how this would work. according to this article - they cannot. (unless they notify you 45 days a head of time - and you can call them and get the reason. They can only do it if you've has the card >1 year. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-cards/credit-card-issuer-raising-interest-rate-5-times/
Here is an article;https://www.creditcardinsider.com/blog/dispute-fraudulent-credit-card-charge/. That says the card company 'eats' the charge if they cannot get ahold of the merchant. However - if you look at multiple sources - credit card companies and Merchants can buy Chargeback insurance - so that its actually those companies that 'pay'.
Credit card companies also get money back from the interest you pay, as well as the yearly charges. But as far as I can tell - they will not increase your interest rates.
bluprntguy
Well-Known Member
He actually said their financial position remains strong and that they were investing in systems to scale operations. Given the fact that they didn't seem to fulfill any orders after that time and closed up shop about 6 weeks later, it's hard to imagine a situation where he didn't know that these were inaccurate statements.
"But nevertheless, our financial position remains strong, and we feel it’s important to focus on delivering the orders we have"
"As we continue to invest in manufacturing systems to allow us to scale operations"
An Update from CEO Brian Degen
Dear MindStream Community, We have decided to temporarily suspend web store sales of the MindStream Monitor in order to catch up on the extensive backlog of orders we've received over the past few months. This is not a decision we make lightly, as we know it will be a disappointment to many of...
www.reef2reef.com
JoshH
Tank Status: Wet...ish, growing things....
So, inspite of all the well deserved hate on for SAI. I've been told it might be worth it if ANYONE wants to see the Mindstream live on to contact Coralvue and Express your interest to see it survive... owners and interested customers alike...
I've been told that there team has already expressed some interest in acquiring the rights to it. Also, if anyone has the contact info for any of the upper management at SAI if you wouldn't mind PM'ing me that info?
I've been told that there team has already expressed some interest in acquiring the rights to it. Also, if anyone has the contact info for any of the upper management at SAI if you wouldn't mind PM'ing me that info?
JoshH
Tank Status: Wet...ish, growing things....
I think that to some degree the hate is warranted, mostly with how everything's gone down. But it's technology I too was interested in and would like to see continued on as well.
JoshH
Tank Status: Wet...ish, growing things....
Absolutely, I've been told to direct all emails to [email protected], these will go right to the management team.
bluprntguy
Well-Known Member
Rights to what though? The only beta tester that I've ever seen share their experience (after the company folded and the NDA was presumably unenforceable) says that they had significant drift in the values from disk to disk and over the course of the month as the disk degraded. They didn't even buy a production unit because they had serious doubts. These issues were reinforced by the few users that actually had one and had some of the same experiences.
It was a neat idea, but it doesn't seem like the product could withstand the challenges of being submerged in our reef tanks 24/7 and the variability of all the different environments. I'd have serious doubts that it could ever work as advertised. I guess coralvue could buy the rights to an aquarium monitor that seems to have worse accuracy and precision than anything else currently on the market. I'm not sure why they would do that.
It's time for everyone to admit that this was just a big enormous hoax or potentially a scam or fraud.
MnFish1
10K Club member
This is not a post in defense of any company or against any company.
There are multiple users who had good results - there are some who have not. When the Apex 2016 came out - multiple users had great results - some were not - its the same with every product. Unfortunately this company did not have enough money or whatever to continue. Most of your post seems to be speculation right?
I wouldn't base anything on what a beta tester said - by definition - a beta tester is using a 'beta version - so its expected to have bugs. By the way - I'm not sure what stage the company is 'at'. Because their office is locked does not mean that NDA's are no longer enforceable by anyone that buys the assets of the company - right? I mean maybe they are - but you have no way of knowing that. Right?
JoshH
Tank Status: Wet...ish, growing things....
Doubts are allowed, but who knows, maybe all it needs is a fresh look by an actual team of industry professionals. In your lab testing expert opinion, what makes you think it could never work?
MnFish1
10K Club member
Just got a reply from the CEO of Coralvue. Since I dont think its appropriate to post Emails that are private - I would suggest that people interested in keeping the technology alive to use the contact provided by @JoshH
[email protected],
[email protected],
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Joe Rice
Active Member
It's always easy in hindsight to imagine that it should have been obvious that a project that failed would fail. But I see no reason to believe this was anything but a bunch of hard-working and dedicated people attempting to build something revolutionary for our hobby. Did it prove to be too hard? Possibly so, but that's the kind of the risk-taking that we should applaud, not condemn.
They made a big mistake at the end, taking people's money before they were able to ship a product. No argument there - that was unethical. But it seems far more likely to me that they were desperate and had some plan in their head where that money would be enough to get them across one last hurdle, rather than any sort of "fraud" with some goal I can't begin to imagine. It's just human nature not to give up after you've put so much of your life into a project.
They made a big mistake at the end, taking people's money before they were able to ship a product. No argument there - that was unethical. But it seems far more likely to me that they were desperate and had some plan in their head where that money would be enough to get them across one last hurdle, rather than any sort of "fraud" with some goal I can't begin to imagine. It's just human nature not to give up after you've put so much of your life into a project.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I liked your post - but I dont think it was 'unethical'. A willing buyer agreed to those terms. In fact one of the reasons I delayed some in ordering was that concern. But otherwise I agree - they were people that were well meaning - not fraudulent. At least - I havent seen any evidence of anything like that - in fact I'm amazed that so many posts seem to claim it - because that the company locked its doors. Now I agree thats a bad sign - and likely they have ceased business - but claiming fraud implies that this was a plan - rather than a sudden problem - and I don't know who would know that except the company itself
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