Mini cycle

[Fish Fan]

I want to avoid a water change at all costs lol.

Sorry about your difficulties with your new tank. I just want to add that it sounds like you don’t have an RODI filter, and I would suggest you put one right near the top of your “need to get” list. A 125 is a good sized tank, and it sounds like buying and transporting water from your LFS has already gotten old ;-) Beyond just weekly or monthly maintenance, a large water change can be very beneficial to your tank when you encounter issues, and it’s much easier (and cheaper) when you can make your own water at home. Good luck!

 

[alicia24]

Sorry about your difficulties with your new tank. I just want to add that it sounds like you don’t have an RODI filter, and I would suggest you put one right near the top of your “need to get” list. A 125 is a good sized tank, and it sounds like buying and transporting water from your LFS has already gotten old ;-) Beyond just weekly or monthly maintenance, a large water change can be very beneficial to your tank when you encounter issues, and it’s much easier (and cheaper) when you can make your own water at home. Good luck!

Thanks! I do have a rodi buddy but it only makes 50 gallons per day and I didnt have any made when I got this tank. It was more so the lugging of buckets from the rodi water storage to mixing to the tank lol. I dont have a fancy mixing station but I prob should do that.

 

[Dan_P]

Now I dont know what to believe I just dont want the inverts do die.

The free ammonia, NH3, is the toxic version. Ammonium, NH4+, is harmless. The amount of free ammonia present is a smaller amount, like 5-10%, of the Hanna Checker number. Use the chart in the Checker instructions to calculate the total ammonia from the Checker reading. You will need the water temperature and pH for the calculation. A cooler water temperature and lower pH is an excellent approach to immediately lowering the free ammonia. Obviously, the temperature and pH change should not be extreme or too quick.

By the way Prime is useless for ammonia reduction and so is MB7. Only by adding nitrifying bacteria like Bio Spira (not sure whether it’s available) or Fritz Turbo Start can you help bring down the ammonia in a few days. Dr Tim’s acts too slowly and would be worthless as an emergency remedy. That said, the bacteria in the aquarium will start to multiply and remove the ammonia. Keep an eye on the ammonia.

Good luck!

 

[alicia24]

The free ammonia, NH3, is the toxic version. Ammonium, NH4+, is harmless. The amount of free ammonia present is a smaller amount, like 5-10%, of the Hanna Checker number. Use the chart in the Checker instructions to calculate the total ammonia from the Checker reading. You will need the water temperature and pH for the calculation. A cooler water temperature and lower pH is an excellent approach to immediately lowering the free ammonia. Obviously, the temperature and pH change should not be extreme or too quick.

By the way Prime is useless for ammonia reduction and so is MB7. Only by adding nitrifying bacteria like Bio Spira (not sure whether it’s available) or Fritz Turbo Start can you help bring down the ammonia in a few days. Dr Tim’s acts too slowly and would be worthless as an emergency remedy. That said, the bacteria in the aquarium will start to multiply and remove the ammonia. Keep an eye on the ammonia.

Good luck!

That's very helpful thanks so much!!

 

[MnFish1]

Now I dont know what to believe I just dont want the inverts do die.

Prime will not likely help. I have seen no data here suggesting that it's a 'for sure thing' if you move a very high bioload tank - into a new one that 'the ammonia will be gone in an hour'.

This is especially because I believe the person suggesting that has posted at least one (I might be wrong) work-thread suggesting it's a bad idea to use the sand from an old tank when transferring. IIf you're concerned about ammonia - there are 2 choices - water changes or waiting. there are multiple calculators on line that can help determine the effectiveness of water changes.

 

[MnFish1]

never failed a seneye audit, and the results show it. avoiding the jobs altogether, to never be accountable to anything doesnt evolve cycling science at all, the trait brings no new findings we can use to improve efficiencies.

if there were ammonia problems, we'd have consequences after nine years work and new jobs in progress right now in chat.

I'm amazed you think that for nine years nobody's pH could ever be high, in any setting we finalized. its amazing those pages of pure tank control aren't proof enough. people who don't make work threads think you can luck into every job outcome apparently.

Here is what the OP said: " should have not reused the sand I'm realizing that now." Maybe I'm misunderstanding. The OP didn't clarify how he/she rinsed the sand from a 120 gallon tank - as compared to a 5 gallon pico tank, so - its my understanding that without significant rinsing your work thread does not support just dumping old sand into a new tank. Especially not pico or nano tanks. I'm not arguing - I just always thought rinsing the sand is mandatory - the OP may not have followed your 'protocol'

 

[MnFish1]

Garf how about this option

your take is that in cycling threads ran without testing, using solely timelines of submersion for the surface area at hand, there really is ammonia but we keep getting lucky by default low pH in every tank worked.

@Garf never said this.

that implies someone here has seen instances online in prior troubleshoots they worked where ammonia control wasn't in place, ignoring it didn't/couldn't work, the pH was high, and you saw free ammonia rise to kill organisms in the tank due to lack of or a stalled or partial cycle in a reef tank display.

if we don't see an example of that, from anyone, what does that mean about implied worst case scenarios given by warning here to the OP?

No one said this either - nor implied it. Seems like people were just trying to give suggestions.

I realize some stretches will have to be made, such as we must accept any stated cycling tank loss as an ammonia-caused one, there can't be acclimation variables in play, or disease from skipping all required actions in the disease forum, or unstated causes like contaminants a new keeper wouldn't know to regard.

No one said ammonia is the only thing to blame during cycling in this thread.

I realize every malady in a new fish tank will be blamed on cycling ammonia, but let's see everyone's loss threads where a new reef couldn't control it's ammonia and things died and you commented on that, in the thread.

wasn't said

if we still get no examples after setting that low of a bar for the risk outcome, then I say that risk outcome was and is being made up.

make it a thread you posted in though, part of your series of active ammonia consultations + outcomes logged, don't just search a random web thread from 2015 and post that as proof. lets see how often the umpires giving the warnings actually ever see the call irl

Many people on this forum do not agree with this work-thread approach. Many people have said it respectfully. A lot of anecdotes can be a great resource - but since you don't compare exact tank conditions in each thread it becomes somewhat meaningless. Tank size, filtration, bioload, etc - all play a role in tank transfer - you can not take every one - and make a plan (IMHO) for every person moving their tank around.

I look for them always, and only find the opposite: cycled. you don't see me telling a lot of reefers their cycle isn't done, that's for a reason. let's see your encounters.

what Dan_P is going to do with a seneye will change reef tank cycling rules in one way or another. his findings on various cycling aspects over time will either quickly end current debates or present new proofs, darn hard to disagree with. I'm wondering how much sting his findings are going to convey to me heh. what his meter says I will accept fully.

I hope Dan_P is using real tanks. In real life - in order to apply those results to everyone else's tanks. There is a potential reason why very few people own a Seneye or see a need for one - do you see it?

topics include hopefully revealed:
-starvation details for cycled rocks, ability to reduce ammonia control function over food withheld / timeframes at hand.

-air time/stress tests for cycled materials, how long bioslicks on cycled surfaces hold enough water to prevent airtime from killing the cycle.

-methods to determine whether or not old reef tank sandbeds have stores of free ammonia to liberate like shale oil.

-timing for various cycles: skip cycles, bottle bac cycles, feed only with no bottle bac cycles, fully unassisted cycles.

his work and Taricha's work will change reef tank cycling science for sure.

You are saying multiple things that no one here has said - as far as I read. I don't think any one thinks sand has stores of free ammonia - The issue with sand is H2S in some cases. I never heard Dan or Taricha mention shale oil

 

[alicia24]

Prime will not likely help. I have seen no data here suggesting that it's a 'for sure thing' if you move a very high bioload tank - into a new one that 'the ammonia will be gone in an hour'.

This is especially because I believe the person suggesting that has posted at least one (I might be wrong) work-thread suggesting it's a bad idea to use the sand from an old tank when transferring. IIf you're concerned about ammonia - there are 2 choices - water changes or waiting. there are multiple calculators on line that can help determine the effectiveness of water changes.

Thanks! I'll see what the ammonia is today and if its increasing I'll do a water change.

 

[alicia24]

Here is what the OP said: " should have not reused the sand I'm realizing that now." Maybe I'm misunderstanding. The OP didn't clarify how he/she rinsed the sand from a 120 gallon tank - as compared to a 5 gallon pico tank, so - its my understanding that without significant rinsing your work thread does not support just dumping old sand into a new tank. Especially not pico or nano tanks. I'm not arguing - I just always thought rinsing the sand is mandatory - the OP may not have followed your 'protocol'

I did not rinse it..my mistake

 

[MnFish1]

I did not rinse it..my mistake

Most importantly - beside the debate about ammonia - how are the anemones, etc doing? The good news is they will take up some ammonia

 

[brandon429]

Can we get a new tank pic

what I've learned during old cycling science threads is if we simply keep the tank pics going and they look normal, it gets harder and harder as the weeks go by to keep selling the system as pre crash. it's not going to crash, it's going to get an outbreak as a worst case. corals open, animals added stay alive: that means something as the weeks go by.

if your tank never looks different in pics than it does right now other than some dinos or algae, we can't then claim your cycle was broken now. something stark in the way the system carries bioload would have to change in order for a broken cycle to now be repaired.

can I get an updated full tank pic pls/

 

[MnFish1]

I did not rinse it..my mistake

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. The good news is you have a mature biome - that you transferred - and my GUESS is that your corals/anemones will recover after adjusting

 

[alicia24]

Most importantly - beside the debate about ammonia - how are the anemones, etc doing? The good news is they will take up some ammonia

Lol thanks for asking! Oh that is good news! Im just so worried they will die. I know they're very sensitive or so I've read. The tank looks the same as yesterday. The nems are no where near as happy as they were before the tank was transferred but they 95% are open. A few are quite droopy. There's a toadstool that is 95% bleached but hard to know if that was pre transfer or not. I feel like the snails and shrimp and starfish are moving abnornally slow idk.

 

[alicia24]

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. The good news is you have a mature biome - that you transferred - and my GUESS is that your corals/anemones will recover after adjusting

Thank you!! I sure hope so. This whole thing has been a disaster so far. Almost every piece of equipment has an issue and now the ammonia.

 

[Garf]

Lol thanks for asking! Oh that is good news! Im just so worried they will die. I know they're very sensitive or so I've read. The tank looks the same as yesterday. The nems are no where near as happy as they were before the tank was transferred but they 95% are open. A few are quite droopy. There's a toadstool that is 95% bleached but hard to know if that was pre transfer or not. I feel like the snails and shrimp and starfish are moving abnornally slow idk.

You got a little activated carbon? Toadstools can give off stuff that you may want to remove.

 

[alicia24]

Can we get a new tank pic

what I've learned during old cycling science threads is if we simply keep the tank pics going and they look normal, it gets harder and harder as the weeks go by to keep selling the system as pre crash. it's not going to crash, it's going to get an outbreak as a worst case. corals open, animals added stay alive: that means something as the weeks go by.

if your tank never looks different in pics than it does right now other than some dinos or algae, we can't then claim your cycle was broken now. something stark in the way the system carries bioload would have to change in order for a broken cycle to now be repaired.

can I get an updated full tank pic pls/

Here's a few pics. Last pic is the only nem that looks near death but it also looked like that day 1 after transfer

 

[alicia24]

You got a little activated carbon? Toadstools can give off stuff that you may want to remove.

Yes I will add some. Thanks! Can it come back from being bleached? There is some color in the center. Just looks horribly ugly all bleached like that

 

[brandon429]

yes don't remove it. we always lower the light levels in tank transfers, that's why we have no bleaching events, so with these lights being the same as before that's not an acclimation surprise. Don't judge anything from what toadstools do: they close up sometimes for days or weeks to shed tunic material, then are out strong. don't throw it out until it falls off the base; it easily might come back. move it down a little if it's high up: bleach burns during transfers are a real risk, that's why we stopped using full light in the transfer thread.

in no way can trace ammonia harm anything in your system, for reasons we've discussed completely. the rest of this thread will be critics painting fear and testing reaction into your reefing habits, preventing you from understanding updated cycling science for the likely entirety of your reefing career, they're bent on it apparently, but any tank pic you post will be that of a normal-running reef. if you had bad water, none of those anemones would be open.

I have nearly all writers here who never do work threads but are quick to critique running work threads on block; troll noise never helps me complete any job.

so each week till the matter dies, if you'll just put in one simple tank pic, the threads I'm linking this thread to can see how well the umpiring works between new/confident cycling science and old/constantly in fear cycling science. It's important readers be able to tie in warnings, or assurances here, to actually what we see the tank doing. only those pics provide an anchor the wildly varying status claims here.

if you put down that ammonia test kit, and never run it on your tank again, the anxiety level will slowly decrease once you see ten weeks go by and the tank simply runs normal day to day.

If I put a kenya tree coral into my reef right now it won't last long, it'll be dead by July. for some reason, my tank can't keep them. it wouldn't mean my cycle is broken due to what one coral does. looks at the tank as a whole; all those open corals, if you add fish they'll live, that's cycled.

 

[Garf]

Yes I will add some. Thanks! Can it come back from being bleached? There is some color in the center. Just looks horribly ugly all bleached like that

The one in the pic looks like a finger leather. Lots of these coral can sulk for a while, then shed a mucous layer, then be right as rain again.

 

[alicia24]

yes don't remove it. we always lower the light levels in tank transfers, that's why we have no bleaching events, so with these lights being the same as before that's not an acclimation surprise. Don't judge anything from what toadstools do: they close up sometimes for days or weeks to shed tunic material, then are out strong. don't throw it out until it falls off the base; it easily might come back. move it down a little if it's high up: bleach burns during transfers are a real risk, that's why we stopped using full light in the transfer thread.

in no way can trace ammonia harm anything in your system, for reasons we've discussed completely. the rest of this thread will be critics painting fear and testing reaction into your reefing habits, preventing you from understanding updated cycling science for the likely entirety of your reefing career, they're bent on it apparently, but any tank pic you post will be that of a normal-running reef. if you had bad water, none of those anemones would be open.

Ok thank you!! I was going to say it does look like it's shedding?! Which is new today. I will lower it down in tank.
It is confusing that the nems are open so I do see what you are saying too. I dont have enough experience or knowledge to take sides lol. I do know I dont want to be doing 50% water changes daily lol