Miracle mud in refugium.... is it worth it??

[aquablizz]

Thinking of adding a layer of miracle mud to my refugium to help with the water quality. Some products advertise that it help in controlling HLLE Below is a quote...

1. Miracle Mud ensures an environment so healthy that it dramatically reverses the effects of head and lateral line erosion (HLLE).

Not sure I buy into that but I do have a problem with HLLE in one of my Angle's.
Looking for some feedback from members.

Only thing present in my refugium is live rock and Chaetomorph.. I'm always struggling with Nitrates though.

blizz

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Miracle mud makes a lot of claims unfortuanetely. It one reason I went away from them too. As far as HLLE youd be better served asking about that here on r2r and its causes. Some research indicates large carbon use, dunno.

On filtration, one Mriacle mud prob is you have to follow thier ecosystem method directions. its not so much the mud taking out the nutrients as the macroalgae farm the mud is designed for.
Plus on a running tank the mud will addd nutrients and minerals initally. coluld be goo or bad. Personally I would look into running a small dsb in your refugium and more different macroalgaes..addding live sand is initally nutrient nutral.

 

[aquablizz]

Thanks for your reply Salty,,, I think the DSB approach is what I am leaning towards. Do you have any recommendations on grain size or product??
My refugium is only a couple months old but I am struggling with getting the Chaeto to grow.. I started with a soft ball size piece and it is still a soft ball size piece.. Lighting approx. 12 per day.. There are a few pod's in it but not many. probably should throw in some Calupera and see if there is any difference.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thanks for your reply Salty,,, I think the DSB approach is what I am leaning towards. Do you have any recommendations on grain size or product??
My refugium is only a couple months old but I am struggling with getting the Chaeto to grow.. I started with a soft ball size piece and it is still a soft ball size piece.. Lighting approx. 12 per day.. There are a few pod's in it but not many. probably should throw in some Calupera and see if there is any difference.

is the tank new or the fuge?
I use a 5ok and 32k kelvin bulbs in the fuge. its a big difference. also the chato needs decent flow. Its should be growing. so somethings not right in the fuge set up.
Yea regular sugar sand that doesnt blow around.

 

[aquablizz]

definitely good flow,, as far as lighting I'm only using a squiggly bulb. The display tank is 20 yrs. old but the fuge is only a couple months... fish only setup..

 

[Reefcowboy]

They say it must be replaced with time...what a mess that would be....good salt with water changes would replenish all trace needed.
Mud has WAY too many unproven claims

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

wow 20 years. how cool. Check the color temp on the bulb. what you want to look for is full spectrum, ususally called daylight. or run a cool white and then a warm white.

 

[Diesel]

That's a question for Michael Paletta, Google him on Y-tube and you'll find his 6 tanks running on MM.
I'm thinking of going the route too on MM in my DT, years ago I had good results but nothing better I have now.
I'm asking myself again "if it ain't broken why fix it"

 

[Zero Nitrates]

I switched over to miracle mud method on a 27 cube and took the protein skimmer off. It's been five months and it's the cleanest tank I have. I actually have to feed extra doses of oyster feast because the nitrates and phosphates got down close to zero. It is a softy tank and the polyp extension is amazing.
You are supposed to change half of the mud out after a year. That sounds messy but I really like it so far.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yup. A true "eco system" (MM) method is skimmerless. Add a skimmer it's called the Palleta method.
Mine is a modified version. My sump sand is live sand I mixed with Fiji Mud and I run a slightly underrated skimmer.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I switched over to miracle mud method on a 27 cube and took the protein skimmer off. It's been five months and it's the cleanest tank I have. I actually have to feed extra doses of oyster feast because the nitrates and phosphates got down close to zero. It is a softy tank and the polyp extension is amazing.
You are supposed to change half of the mud out after a year. That sounds messy but I really like it so far.

I was never sure if that changing was marketing. The owner does like the marketing. I watched pretty much all the videos.

 

[Zero Nitrates]

It makes sense to me that you would change it out. I always had to change sand out of my old 120 because of calcification and detritus build up.

 

[Reefcowboy]

Whats the science behind the mud doing similar work of a protein skimmer??

The skimmer removes the waste before it is broken down producing nitrates. Bacteria need porous, anaerobic(no o2) medium to process nitrates. Can anyone help me understand?

 

[Zero Nitrates]

From my experience, skimmers remove bad proteins and good proteins (bacteria in the water column). The mud or dsb just gives bacteria a place to grow. The macro algae is removing most of the nitrates.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Whats the science behind the mud doing similar work of a protein skimmer??

The skimmer removes the waste before it is broken down producing nitrates. Bacteria need porous, anaerobic(no o2) medium to process nitrates. Can anyone help me understand?

yup.
It removes it in both. Before and after bacterial processing and usually not large particles. its not the mud doing the work of the skimmer its the macros.
We forget ,Mosty we are putting food(large) in and letting it rot and then pulling it out(small). we are also according to Randy on carbon dosing pulling out(skimming) the bacteria too now that they are full of the No and Po.
thus nitrate probs as theres not enough bacterial surface area to make the food/poo small for the skimmer to pull it out. the macros "pick up the slack"

The mud or dsb just gives bacteria a place to grow.

the two terms are interchangable. According to Ron shmiek on DSB it's not truly sand its Oolite sand, super fine, and is "mud".

The macro algae is removing most of the nitrates.

and phosphates

So by trimming the macros you are "emptying the skimmer cup" thus the ecosystem mandate to have a large calurpa forest.

 

[Reefcowboy]

Well adding medium for the bacteria only would work until a certain point. One can load a tank with live rock or media blocks for bacteria to grow in. After a certain point the nitrate level will stay constant. That is when carbon dosing comes in, to grow out the bacteria population in the media so that it can be skimmed out after it consumes nitrates. That is why a skimmer is so important when carbon dosing.

Deep sand beds are now as we all know a thing of the past, that brings more bad than good. Im wondering why there are more negatives out there on mud than good?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Well adding medium for the bacteria only would work until a certain point. One can load a tank with live rock or media blocks for bacteria to grow in. After a certain point the nitrate level will stay constant. That is when carbon dosing comes in, to grow out the bacteria population in the media so that it can be skimmed out after it consumes nitrates. That is why a skimmer is so important when carbon dosing.

Deep sand beds are now as we all know a thing of the past, that brings more bad than good. Im wondering why there are more negatives out there on mud than good?

consider this. Negatives from whom.

I love my DSB and many are going back to it. Many never left. Dsb dont bring more bad than good unless you do it wrong. Like light or skimmers.
And +1 on carbon dosing.
Miracle mud got a bad rap cuz the guy likes marketing. Its sand and minerals. But that being said, sunglasses arent really HD are they? And nobody shoots movies in 6k.

 

[Brett H whitt]

I have used miracle mud for years in fish only tanks and more recently in two reef tanks. Been very happy with the mud. I use it in my sump with chaeto algae and a grow light. I actually had to start dosing nitrate recently just to get some detectable levels of nitrate. Never had any issues with it. I do run a protein skimmer and once a year I change out ½ the mud bed. It’s easy to do. Just drain the sump and switch out the mud, then place a plastic trash bag over the mud and secure it with 4 or 5 rocks. Then gently add the water back into the sump. Gently remove the rocks and the plastic bag and you are back in business.

One of my tanks was set up with reef safe dry rock. I have never had a detectable level of ammonia, nitrate or nitrite. All my water parameters are stable.