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.AcroKiller.
2500 Club Member
This is crazy.
Mobius is junk
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I don't think we can use the argument that etm products are in/over a majority tanks, which means there's going to be more complaints by volume.
Even if they only sold 10 lights and 2 had clocks that drift. They need to solve the issue.
It seems that all we can do is speculate at what the problem is, and there are some very smart diagnostic minds out there that have probably put their finger on the exact problem. And maybe etm does know what the issue is and can't figure out a solution to solve it without initiating a major recall. Then the argument would be the sheer number of products in circulation would cripple the company. Of course I'm just speculating and none of what I say holds more water than the next theory.
I have my own idea, and it involves hardware. I'm guessing that each unit uses some sort of crystal oscillator to track/keep time. Depending on quality control each oscillator is subjected to defects that may make one unit lose/gain a second in a month, while the unit next to it lose/gain a second in a day.
None of us being privy to their software and how they handle time, this is a huge leap from knowing it's this, to just guessing that it has something to do with it.
Temperature plays a big role in crystal oscillator accuracy as well, perhaps the fixtures that are subjected to more heat see this issue more often. And if im not mistaken, frequent temp swings prematurely wear out these oscillators rendering them unreliable.
But again... this is purely speculation.
Even if they only sold 10 lights and 2 had clocks that drift. They need to solve the issue.
It seems that all we can do is speculate at what the problem is, and there are some very smart diagnostic minds out there that have probably put their finger on the exact problem. And maybe etm does know what the issue is and can't figure out a solution to solve it without initiating a major recall. Then the argument would be the sheer number of products in circulation would cripple the company. Of course I'm just speculating and none of what I say holds more water than the next theory.
I have my own idea, and it involves hardware. I'm guessing that each unit uses some sort of crystal oscillator to track/keep time. Depending on quality control each oscillator is subjected to defects that may make one unit lose/gain a second in a month, while the unit next to it lose/gain a second in a day.
None of us being privy to their software and how they handle time, this is a huge leap from knowing it's this, to just guessing that it has something to do with it.
Temperature plays a big role in crystal oscillator accuracy as well, perhaps the fixtures that are subjected to more heat see this issue more often. And if im not mistaken, frequent temp swings prematurely wear out these oscillators rendering them unreliable.
But again... this is purely speculation.
areefer01
2500 Club Member
In comparison we also cannot say it is garbage or junk when others are reporting a different experience.
You are correct in that we don't know how many of their products are in use but I'm pretty sure we could take a wild guess based on marketing and posts around the web. Still I do agree there is no concrete data that either of us have access to.
My point still stands though when I noted earlier two hobbyist, using same piece of equipment, have two different experiences. Things that make one go hmm...
Hope your day is going well. All the best.
I don't know if it's experience more so it being individual expectations. Personally, I don't care that my lights turn on and off minutes apart from each other. My expectations are low in that sense. But I do experience what people are complaining about. While I don't mind it, there are varying levels an expectations that people purchasing the equipment migh have. And I can definitely understand the frustration people have. Just because i dont agree that it's a deal breaker doesn't make their complaints invalid. Furthermore my personal opinion asside, I don't think that their expectations are unreasonable.
I have defended ecotech in the past when people's understanding of what's expected lead to blasting them, when it is a misunderstanding of how the equipment is supposed to work.
I have a personal friendship with 2/3 of the founders (previous owners) of ecotech, which in a way forces me to be somewhat invested in their products. And for this particular expectation, I can not tell a consumer to lower their expectations, because I do agree that time should be synced across all pieces of mobius equipment. I also understand that it's easier said than done.
I have defended ecotech in the past when people's understanding of what's expected lead to blasting them, when it is a misunderstanding of how the equipment is supposed to work.
I have a personal friendship with 2/3 of the founders (previous owners) of ecotech, which in a way forces me to be somewhat invested in their products. And for this particular expectation, I can not tell a consumer to lower their expectations, because I do agree that time should be synced across all pieces of mobius equipment. I also understand that it's easier said than done.
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Because it is not easily solvable and/or the solution costs money that they don't want to spend and the calculus done indicates that the damage by not fixing is likely less than the cost of fixing. There as an investment group driving these decisions now... Good or bad, I will leave that to you.
Me? I just got two Vortechs and I don't care for Mobius or the lack of documentation. I like the pumps.
I will say, that be it Ecotech, or any of a number of products that WHOLLY rely on an app to operate, I am not a fan, but that is what most people want. So that is what they got.
Enjoy
JM302
Active Member
I think the major complaint here is the system time and date will change at random, not the fact the that lights can turn on +- 2 minutes from each other. So you could be in the middle of a light cycle, the time changes for whatever reason, the tank goes dark and will kick on again based on the mysterious new time and date it picked.
Lights turning on and off a few minutes from each other - although annoying and happens all the time is not that debilitating to the tank. But still something that should be fixed - because it's not okay.
*The following is not directed at anyone directly - it's just me ranting*
/rant
Tanks going dark at random due to a bug in their software with (in my experience) the only response from Ecotech being 'reboot and try again' is not only unacceptable but insulting. That'd be sorta like me asking them to stop with this blackbox nonsense, implement agile devops practices and write some real code. Oh yeah, open the API while you're at it....*sigh*
I really like my Radions, I really like my Vectra L2, but I'm moving on when it's time. It's very much like how Randy is holding additive companies responsible for false claims. We should be holding these 'premium price', 'premium product' vendors accountable for things like this.
Whether you are personally affected by this problem or not this should at least make you think twice the next time you buy some new gear.
I've already dumped my MP40's. Having no cord in the tank for a noisy pump that you can't aim while praying it doesn't decouple on 3/4" glass when it's greater than 60% speed...... totally overrated.
I just don't understand what we as a community are accepting as 'great' these days.
/rant off
Floribraska
Community Member
I'm another exceptionally frustrated user, literally just finished resetting mobius from 1970 (again) 
I get the date/time issue on a ~bi-weekly basis, and have given up on my 4x G5s and 4x Versa dosing pumps ever working right. My Vecta and MP40s never have issues though (or if they do, I can't tell).
I've spent way more hours back and forth with Ecotech support since I purchased this gear in 2020 than I care to admit... I've done every troubleshooting trick in the book. I work in IT and I'd like to think I'm a reasonably smart guy, but I've never been able to get these products to work as expected. I've had nearly every single part of all 4x of my G5s replaced through multiple different warranty claims, with no improvement. Only positive thing I have to say here is Ecotech did cover the cost of all the replacement parts via warranty (and they likely provided warranty replacement parts beyond my initial warranty period), so they get okay marks there at least, but at the end of the day I'm still stuck with expensive gear that doesn't work.
I can't trust any of this gear, which is supposed to be a critical part of my reef, to just work. If I can ever get out of my sunk-cost-fallacy mindset, I'll be buying something else and won't be coming back to Ecotech products.
I get the date/time issue on a ~bi-weekly basis, and have given up on my 4x G5s and 4x Versa dosing pumps ever working right. My Vecta and MP40s never have issues though (or if they do, I can't tell).
I've spent way more hours back and forth with Ecotech support since I purchased this gear in 2020 than I care to admit... I've done every troubleshooting trick in the book. I work in IT and I'd like to think I'm a reasonably smart guy, but I've never been able to get these products to work as expected. I've had nearly every single part of all 4x of my G5s replaced through multiple different warranty claims, with no improvement. Only positive thing I have to say here is Ecotech did cover the cost of all the replacement parts via warranty (and they likely provided warranty replacement parts beyond my initial warranty period), so they get okay marks there at least, but at the end of the day I'm still stuck with expensive gear that doesn't work.
I can't trust any of this gear, which is supposed to be a critical part of my reef, to just work. If I can ever get out of my sunk-cost-fallacy mindset, I'll be buying something else and won't be coming back to Ecotech products.
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OP
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.AcroKiller.
2500 Club Member
Great reply. Thank you.
OP
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.AcroKiller.
2500 Club Member
It’s crazy because they will not accept the issue they will instead keep replacing lights. I just got a reply from them and they will not acknowledge that there’s an issue with mobius. That alone make me question the integrity of the company.
Then you haven't been introduced to 4D Aquatics. They make an attachment that allows you to aim the flow. Hehe... I know this doesn't help the fact. I'm just surprised that not too many people know about those nozzles.
Vortech Movable Nozzles | 4D Aquatics
Expand directional control of your Ecotech Vortech pump up to 18 degrees in all directions. These 3D printed components snap perfectly onto your Ecotech Vortech wetside. The rubber clips make removing for cleaning simple. * Includes both wide and narrow flow nozzles* Made with reef-safe...
www.4daquatics.com
To question their integrity because of their prerogative is neither here nor there.
To be fair, them not publicly acknowledging a problem doesn't mean they're not working towards a solution.
I think @BeanAnimal makes some great points, and weighing costs to justify action probably plays a bigger role now that they're no longer privately owned.
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That is the unfortunate reality with many things. In most cases it is not that they maliciously don’t care, it is just a matter of business calculus. I don’t know Bertram’s motivations but bet they don’t give a hoot about fish or reefing . Rolling up companies in a vertical that would not stand much longer on their own is an investment, be it for profit or as a shelter or write off. We as the consumer are simply along for the ride.
The frustration is real and may fall on deaf ears or may not. Again we don’t know the short or long term motivations. Do they want to grow, burry it in 3 years as a loss, build up revenue for a sale exit? All of that plays into our experience, yet we have no control. Sometime the spirit and wishes of the founders carries forward, other times they are shown the told to cash their checks and shut up. That too is usually beyond our view.
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OP
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.AcroKiller.
2500 Club Member
I understand what you are saying but I disagree. In the end it comes down to integrity. There’s no way they don’t know about the issue.
Not trying to argue it’s just my view on the situation. I think they have a huge issues with the mobius side and they are not saying anything about it so it comes down to integrity.
It’s definitely to me the best led light in the market is they fix this issue. Right now is pretty much an unrealizable $1k led light.
I might just swap to the Ghl Leds or Dalua.
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I don’t agree whatsoever. The foundation of the system is solid. The programming logic and stability are robust even if the programming UI is ugly and in need of a refresh.
The web interface is actually very good as well except for the dashboard, which is a terrible throwback from the 90s
So a solid foundation and operation but ugly UI (but very functional) and outdated dashboard that makes poor use of space and has useless graphing.
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areefer01
2500 Club Member
He doesn't need you to agree as it is their experience. Just like the OP's here saying Mobius is garbage. Two products, difference experience.
This hobby is so strange in that one posts a negative experience and it suddenly becomes truth. It doesn't matter what experience Bob has, the product is crap.
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.AcroKiller.
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I don't need him (or anybody to agree). He posted his opinion and I countered with mine
You will notice that my arguments with people are usually over conflating opinion with fact or misapplication of fact to support an opinion..... in this case, I can't offer anything but to say that his metric for "garbage" software and mine are different in this case.
areefer01
2500 Club Member
I don't need him (or anybody to agree). He posted his opinion and I countered with mine
Neither of which supports there is, or is not, a problem or it is garbage. Just two different experiences.
I don't see them as arguments but that is just me. Opinions and talk, sure. We are more or less on the same page not that it matters. I think in my case though I see more of the negative posts being the foundation of fact without confirmation.
Strange hobby for sure. Hope your day is going well.
