Modern bio media for a wet/dry?

[jcl123]

Hello,

Not looking to start a debate on using or not using wet/dry here. I was out of the hobby for quite a few years and back then wet/dry filters were popular, and I really liked them for allot of reasons.

Today I am building out a Triton setup, and I want to run the water that comes out of my protein skimmer over to a second sump with the wet/dry tower (because I have it anyway). The idea being to add additional aerobic capacity so that I am not solely dependent on live rock (partially because I don't want to jam pack my tank with too much rock or sand), and with Triton I may reach a point where I actually need more Nitrate, and I think it would be interesting to use a wet/dry for that instead of actually dosing Nitrate.

So, I have 13 gallons of the old blue plastic bio balls (the one's with pins). But, this is 2018 and there is probably something better out there that can out perform the bio balls. If so, what?

I have seen some of these ceramic or glass bead products and so forth, anyone have a recommendation?

Doesn't have to be one thing either, I could have a mix of different products or do it in layers. Some of this stuff is pretty expensive, and might have such a high surface area I don't need as much of it. But the results could be impressive over plastic bio balls.

I also have space below the tower, and in the refugium section of the main sump, which I could just put some live rock there or may be some other type of bio media.

Thanks much

-JCL

 

[Reeferdood]

Funny how this hobby evolves, ey? Nowadays having a little nitrate and phosphate is something that we shoot for. IMHO I have seen some of the bast tanks that still use the plastic balls and this they are perfectly fine. With advancements in the hobby like carbon dosing I can't imagine how anyone still struggles with high nutrients anymore. So, if you have them I would say to use them, just make sure you test the system parameters on a regular basis.
Stability is key, alway has been.

 

[jcl123]

Funny how this hobby evolves, ey? Nowadays having a little nitrate and phosphate is something that we shoot for. IMHO I have seen some of the bast tanks that still use the plastic balls and this they are perfectly fine. With advancements in the hobby like carbon dosing I can't imagine how anyone still struggles with high nutrients anymore. So, if you have them I would say to use them, just make sure you test the system parameters on a regular basis.
Stability is key, alway has been.

Indeed, this is my default choice, because I have them. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Just wanted to put the feelers out there in case there is something new that is great and interesting to try.

-JCL

 

[Reeferdood]

There are all kinds of media that you can use if you want. Personally, I use the live rock in the display and I dose NoPox with no other biological media.

 

[jcl123]

There are all kinds of media that you can use if you want. Personally, I use the live rock in the display and I dose NoPox with no other biological media.

OK... I read their web page on the product. It would be nice to know what it is / how it actually works... do you know, or do you know an article that explains it? I am not doubting your results or success, I just don't want to put anything in my system unless I have some idea of what it is and what it does. Someone tells me just put 10ml of our product in your tank everyday, I start off a bit suspicious. Maybe this is a good option instead of using the AL99 recommended by Triton, if it works as well as it says it does.

That being said, I am not worried about excessive NO3 and PO4, actually the opposite, I want to make sure I have enough. But I also want to have enough nitrifying bacteria to cope with my bio load.

-JCL

 

[Reeferdood]

Good to be cautious, you should not believe everything you read on the forums either. Red Sea has a great video series on their products that explains how NoPox works. I am not endorsed by them but I will tell you that it works really well & if you dose too much it will absolutely strip your nutrients.

 

[alton]

I first started in 1991 with bio bale and then moved up to bio balls. I have never had a crash or an issue with low PH. I have had a crash using one of the new sumps on a 65 gallon. So I went back to bio balls in a wet dry style sump. But I don't use it for biological load I use it more for increased oxygen levels, to me the dripping of the water over all those bio balls creates a ton of oxygen. So welcome back and for some of us we are still ole school!

 

[mcarroll]

Aeration
One of the best features of a wet/dry filter (and even of a protein skimmer) is not its filtration capability, which IMO is overrated, but instead it's ability to aerate the water.

Bio-filtration
Live rock is your bio-filter of choice because it offers more than just a substrate.

Other choices give you nothing but substrate which is minimally useful by comparison.

In fact, having too much "raw" surface area might even contribute to nitrogen depletion of the whole system.

A new tank typically has a pretty high demand for these raw nutrients in order to develop properly, so that's a bad thing.

Live Rock
So if you want minimal live rock, just have minimal live rock.

Realistically I'm not sure if there is much of a downside to "minimal".

And I'm not sure anyone has really experimented on defining what "the minimum" amount needed would be.

I'd say you "need" no more than 1 pound per gallon of display....and half that might work just fine.

Dead Rock
Live rock also gives your tank exactly the right inoculation of microbes it needs for long term success.

So don't skimp on man-made or dead rock, etc, if you're going minimal. Get good quality, real live (from the ocean) rock if you can get it.

If you have no choice but dead rock, be prepared to do a lot of reading to understand the difficulties that come with dead rock.

It brings "Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank." to a whole new level, IMO.

Bio-balls!!!
What's not a bad thing, IMO, are bio-balls.

I say use em', and enjoy 'em.

Bio-balls never got in the way of anyone's reef. The "nitrate factory" is mostly a myth leftover from fish-only/no-live rock systems.

If nothing else seeing the wet-dry in action will help you reminisce about tanks of yore and that's all good!

 

[jcl123]

I first started in 1991 with bio bale and then moved up to bio balls. I have never had a crash or an issue with low PH. I have had a crash using one of the new sumps on a 65 gallon. So I went back to bio balls in a wet dry style sump. But I don't use it for biological load I use it more for increased oxygen levels, to me the dripping of the water over all those bio balls creates a ton of oxygen. So welcome back and for some of us we are still ole school!

Exactly right, my system is fully Triton, even if you don't need the biological filtration, I also really like the idea of the gas exchange and oxygen capabilities of the wet/dry. I have airlines going into the chamber coming from an air pump. I am even thinking of using outside air.

I am also using modules from Lifeguard Aquatics, I think that is also old school ;-)

-JCL

 

[jcl123]

Aeration
One of the best features of a wet/dry filter (and even of a protein skimmer) is not its filtration capability, which IMO is overrated, but instead it's ability to aerate the water.

Yeah, me and alton are with you on this one. Think of Hyperbaric therapy....

Bio-filtration
Live rock is your bio-filter of choice because it offers more than just a substrate.

Other choices give you nothing but substrate which is minimally useful by comparison.

In fact, having too much "raw" surface area might even contribute to nitrogen depletion of the whole system.

A new tank typically has a pretty high demand for these raw nutrients in order to develop properly, so that's a bad thing.

Yeah, I was wondering if for substrate you could use something that contributed surface are vs. just plain crushed coral or sand.

On your second point, I am hoping this is not the case. My theory is that Triton already has the capability (done properly of course) to run Nitrate and Phosphate to zero. This assumes that you have enough biological filtration (from berlin) for your bio-load. Right now I am on the "more the better" side of things, but if your comment has any merit, then I should stick with the bio-balls, and going with something better might actually be detrimental. Hey, I can also take some of them out if I wanted to reach a specific amount ;-)

Live Rock
So if you want minimal live rock, just have minimal live rock.

Realistically I'm not sure if there is much of a downside to "minimal".

And I'm not sure anyone has really experimented on defining what "the minimum" amount needed would be.

I'd say you "need" no more than 1 pound per gallon of display....and half that might work just fine.

Yeah, this is what someone else I know is recommending.... they say 1 pound per gallon of live rock, AND 1 pound per gallon of live sand. I am assuming this is just display tank volume, so for me 135 gallons. I suppose if I put some in my sump that would "count" and would not need to be in my display tank.

But still, 135 pounds of each seems like allot to me. Maybe I have just having trouble visualizing it. Maybe it is not that much all said and done.

Dead Rock
Live rock also gives your tank exactly the right inoculation of microbes it needs for long term success.

So don't skimp on man-made or dead rock, etc, if you're going minimal. Get good quality, real live (from the ocean) rock if you can get it.

If you have no choice but dead rock, be prepared to do a lot of reading to understand the difficulties that come with dead rock.

It brings "Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank." to a whole new level, IMO.

All of the live rock and live sand I plan to get from a friend who does aquarium maintenance, he has a large curing setup at his warehouse and tries to get as much of the unwanted beasties out.

I think he is sourcing it from multiple places. I could certainly pull rocks out of the ocean, but there are no reefs or anything up here in the northeast.....

Bio-balls!!!
What's not a bad thing, IMO, are bio-balls.

I say use em', and enjoy 'em.

Bio-balls never got in the way of anyone's reef. The "nitrate factory" is mostly a myth leftover from fish-only/no-live rock systems.

If nothing else seeing the wet-dry in action will help you reminisce about tanks of yore and that's all good!

Well, I have to say this reply leaves me a little bit surprised, and maybe encouraged. I agree with you, the nitrate factory is probably from people doing something they shouldn't and/or didn't completely understand what they were doing.

And yeah, i'll admit love watching wet/dry in action ;-)

Thanks

-JCL

 

[mcarroll]

I won't tell how many minutes I've spent watching skimmers bubble..

 

[SashimiTurtle]

I'm completely inexperienced with a wet/dry setup. I've always been a little confused at how something could be both wet and dry... but could you use something like the Marine Pure spheres in place of your bio balls? As long as they do not have to tumble, and from pictures of ancient reefs(I jest, I had to throw that in there) they appear to be of similar size. Any tumbling and the Marine Pure would crumble into dust. The surface area on them is insane tho, some of them have so much air inside that they take a second to sink when first adding them. With the dust from shipping, I would recommend rinsing in RODI water before adding to your sump.

 

[jcl123]

I'm completely inexperienced with a wet/dry setup. I've always been a little confused at how something could be both wet and dry... but could you use something like the Marine Pure spheres in place of your bio balls? As long as they do not have to tumble, and from pictures of ancient reefs(I jest, I had to throw that in there) they appear to be of similar size. Any tumbling and the Marine Pure would crumble into dust. The surface area on them is insane tho, some of them have so much air inside that they take a second to sink when first adding them. With the dust from shipping, I would recommend rinsing in RODI water before adding to your sump.

Wet/dry or "trickle" filters are not actually dry, it just means that the media is not submerged, water is tricked over it above the surface of the water. So only dry in the sense that it is not submerged.

Nitrifying bacteria are limited by a bunch of things (pH, salinity, others) but one of the biggest is oxygen. Ordinary air contains about 60,000 times more oxygen than water, and I think freshwater can hold 4-5x as much as saltwater, the salt content reducing the oxygen carrying capacity.

Lastly, the bacteria need a surface to live on. So trickling water over high surface area media in theory gives you this great advantage over submerged media by constantly exposing it to an air/water mixture.

Yeah, marine pure is one of the options I am considering. It's expensive, but I figure I could put a layer of it at the bottom of my wet/dry and fill the space above with the bio-balls.

-JCL

 

[jcl123]

OK, so upon further investigation, here is what I came up with:

Marinepure: This looks like great stuff and will do the job, but it is very brittle and has the risk of leaching aluminum. Pretty expensive too.

Brightwell: Also good, but possibly even more brittle than the marinepure. They seem to not have the aluminum leaching problem, and they add things to increase pH which is interesting. Also on the pricey side.

Maxspect: This is actually my current front-runner if I don't find something better. Not quite as much surface area as marinepure or brightwell, but extremely sturdy construction, and still much more surface area than the bio-balls I have. Appears to be no leaching problem, and it is a bit cheaper than the others as well. Appears that this material is taken from commercial sewage treatment, something that I actually have some experience with.

Still researching products, but the Maxspect looks like a winner. I will probably get some multiple of the amount they recommend, because I am thinking the surface area numbers are probably inflated, and the usable surface area is probably limited by a few factors that I can think of.

Whatever space I have left in the chamber I can fill with the bio-balls, could help distributing the water over the media more evenly.

Let me know if anyone has any information to add that would be interesting.

Thanks

-JCL

 

[Forsaken77]

I had my best tank results with an old Marinelabd wet/dry, with that giabt biowheel, lol. I'd honestly use that if it was still made (the double wheel one).

As for the media... Matrix and Marine pure spheres and maybe the big Marine Pure blocks to line the bottom?

 

[Forsaken77]

Exactly right, my system is fully Triton, even if you don't need the biological filtration, I also really like the idea of the gas exchange and oxygen capabilities of the wet/dry. I have airlines going into the chamber coming from an air pump. I am even thinking of using outside air.

I am also using modules from Lifeguard Aquatics, I think that is also old school ;-)

-JCL

Nothing wrong with bioballs at all. But isn't the surface area of the other medias 10x's, if not more, than what bio balls offer?

If using any bioballs, I would suggest to mix them in with other media, rather than exclusively.

 

[jcl123]

Nothing wrong with bioballs at all. But isn't the surface area of the other medias 10x's, if not more, than what bio balls offer?

If using any bioballs, I would suggest to mix them in with other media, rather than exclusively.

Indeed, that is my plan. Plastic bio-balls are 20 sq ft each, or about 1,600 sq ft per gallon. The Maxspect media says it is 580 sq. ft. per sphere, so a gallon would be about 46,400 sq ft.

My bio-tower is 8.8 gallons, so if I filled it that would be about 400,000 sq ft, or about two of the largest home depot stores ;-)

-JCL

 

[mcarroll]

IMO...

I'd specifically avoid the high-surface-area stuff.

That's designed for denitrification and it's unlikely that you'll need any more denitrification than your tank will already support via the rock you have.

It's as likely to cause nitrate limitation issues as it is to help with anything.

If you do add anything like that, wait util there's a demonstrated need for it in the tank's day to day performance.

2¢

 

[jcl123]

IMO...

I'd specifically avoid the high-surface-area stuff.

That's designed for denitrification and it's unlikely that you'll need any more denitrification than your tank will already support via the rock you have.

It's as likely to cause nitrate limitation issues as it is to help with anything.

If you do add anything like that, wait util there's a demonstrated need for it in the tank's day to day performance.

2¢

To clarify what you mean here, you are talking about the larger "blocks" that theoretically could do NO3 -> N2 with anaerobic bacteria, yes?

Because yeah, I don't think I will need it. There is the live rock for that, but also my Triton refugium I think will be my main method.

So I think I will just get some of the Maxspect "balls" for use in the wet/dry.

-JCL

 

[mcarroll]

any densely porous biomedia