Modern lighting confusion... Sigh

Mfannan · Feb 28, 2018

So, I've been reefing and in this hobby for years and years, and I've been lurking on this site for 10 plus of those years, I've seen fads come and go, and even spent about 5 years out of the hobby, but about six or eight months ago, I got back into it with a 30 gallon tank for my daughter, then, a 90 for me, now ive gone and gotten a 150 that im setting up now, to be followed by an in-wall 250. Back on the day, the go to was metal halide and t5ho lights, they sucked for power usage, but man theu looked good, and i could build the fixtures for next to nothing, still can in all reality. HOWEVER now LED is the new in thing, and there is a mess of options, from building a fixture by myself, going with MH/t5, and a hybrid of all....

I used to setup my lights via wattage, everything about led lights is different...

To make things harder, my wife likes the controllability of LED fixtures...

So this was long winded, but I have a question, or several I should say... oh a side note... I'm cheap, really cheap.

I like pendants, but I have no idea how many over a 6 foot tank required to grow, well anything the boss may want...

I hate the price on kessil, and having repaired several for friends, they aren't that special inside. (CLEAN THEM OUT!!!)

I like the effects of the orbit loop system, but I'm cheap.

SO basically..

I've read a ton of articles, and have just come up frustrated and confused.. Should I look at the Dsuny programmable LED fixtures on ebay? Should I get some used fixtures? Should I get the orbit marine pro loop setup? I don't mind chinese fixtures, as I can fix them, no issue.. I just don't want to spend hundreds of dollars per fixture, especially since I've fixed so many over the years, and I can't see why they are so expensive, I can get the same cree led's, drivers, etc locally sourced for next to nothing, but I don't want to spend the time building them anymore.

So what should I do? Just go back to MH and supplement the sunrise, sunset and cloud programs with some LEDs? Should I get some black boxes? If so how many and what recommendation?

Like I said, I've read a number of posts, but just looking for some down to the point recommendations...

mcarroll · Feb 28, 2018

Do you have a specific budget?

If you're cheap, halide or T5 is not the way to go. LED's with strong lenses give the best bang for your buck, but there aren't too many options with strong lenses these days. If you could find an OLD Current Orbit Pro DUAL, then have 60º lenses. There may be some no-name options...but I couldn't name them. (Right??)

Maybe stick with DIY, but run Kessil-style "multichips" so you get more of a spotlight effect and fewer emitters to install/maintain. You can get a 60º lens too, at least for the bigger ones.

Like this:

50W 50Watt Royal Blue 445nm-450nm White 6000K-6500K Multichip LED DC 30-36V 1.5A
Brand New

$12.99

They seem to range in power from 5 watts up to 100 watts...you can even find package deals that include heasink, lens parts, et al.

Denisk · Feb 28, 2018

If you don’t want to spend a ton of money. Id go get some black boxes. I ran them when I originally started and I still run one tank with them. They have no issues growing anything! Put them on a timer. Set it and forget it. There are WiFi versions now which won’t even need timers.

If this is going to go over a 150, 3 of them will be more than fine. Either way, I don’t think there is a right or a wrong. All these options will grow coral. Not sure about the marine orbit and or eBay light fixtures.

Best of luck!

10Seconds · Feb 28, 2018

Im cheap so I feel your pain.

I am a relatively new reefer, only been in the hobby for a couple years so I came in when LED was already the in thing and I bought in....

... and it sucks. I sold my LEDs and went MH/T5 lights on all my tanks. Now I do like using some extra blue Leds to pop colors as supplemental but I will never use as my main lights again. MH is just that much better.

And you can find them used for cheap.

I finally upgraded to a Giesmann Spectra which I love.

I will get killed for saying this but I would rather a ebay Odyssea fixture with upgraded bulbs and balasts over a Radion LED.

Mfannan · Feb 28, 2018

I've built all of my MH fixtures, I used to go down to the local utility and buy old streetlight fixtures and ballasts and build them out of that, usually I could build 4 250w MH fixtures for under 100 bucks, but, the DW and I love the set it and forget it of programmable LED setups, which is why I'm asking... Honestly love MH, but LED just is easy, I don't mind replacing bulbs, but if I can get a couple of reliable types and counts of cheap LED's, thats fine too... I found these::

https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-96-DSun...hash=item4d645d3b46:m:m2pctxZTX_fdP41dgSW_2lg

and

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3PCS-DSunY...231855&hash=item4d44aa1c61:g:SbsAAOSwQN5afFWh

but I've also seen these, and really like them, but not sure if they are adequate:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CURRENT-US...347268&hash=item1a2cab6ade:g:uC0AAOSwAPVZJjG6

Sigh....

Mfannan · Feb 28, 2018

mcarroll said:
Do you have a specific budget?

If you're cheap, halide or T5 is not the way to go. LED's with strong lenses give the best bang for your buck, but there aren't too many options with strong lenses these days. If you could find an OLD Current Orbit Pro DUAL, then have 60º lenses. There may be some no-name options...but I couldn't name them. (Right??)

Maybe stick with DIY, but run Kessil-style "multichips" so you get more of a spotlight effect and fewer emitters to install/maintain. You can get a 60º lens too, at least for the bigger ones.

Like this:

50W 50Watt Royal Blue 445nm-450nm White 6000K-6500K Multichip LED DC 30-36V 1.5A
Brand New

$12.99

They seem to range in power from 5 watts up to 100 watts...you can even find package deals that include heasink, lens parts, et al.

I want to stay under 500 if I can, and I really like the multichip idea as well, I started to draw out a play to DIY, but I ended up with 12 channels, and more 3W LED's than I could shake a stick at, and after I figured the time to build the PCB, run traces, and do a mess of soldering, I got fed up with that idea, but the multichip has possiblities, have you built anything with these???

mcarroll · Feb 28, 2018

Nope. But quite a few have if you google around. "multichip" or "dreamchip" would be good search terms to play with.

(I went the gu10 bulb route when I was DIY'ing...easy install.

It might be a lot for a large tank tho.)

Kershaw · Feb 28, 2018

Ocean revive are 150 and I have seen some amazing tanks run them.
I always go with one light for every 24 inch’s. That’s a little weak for sps when it comes to around the 18” mark. So if your going sps. I would do one light for about every 18” just my opinion.

A. grandis · Mar 1, 2018

10Seconds said:
Im cheap so I feel your pain.

I am a relatively new reefer, only been in the hobby for a couple years so I came in when LED was already the in thing and I bought in....

... and it sucks. I sold my LEDs and went MH/T5 lights on all my tanks. Now I do like using some extra blue Leds to pop colors as supplemental but I will never use as my main lights again. MH is just that much better.

And you can find them used for cheap.

I finally upgraded to a Giesmann Spectra which I love.

I will get killed for saying this but I would rather a ebay Odyssea fixture with upgraded bulbs and balasts over a Radion LED.

That!
Get the halides and t5s going.
Save yourself any troubles and unnecessary time around LEDs.
Giesemann Spectra is the way to go if you're serious about it.
Just an opinion, like everyone else here...
Grandis.

teller · Mar 1, 2018

Why not the current USA orbit marine 72 Ic loop pro dual?
Other is a used T5 with 8 bulbs?
Depends on the corals you want to keep.

Bpb · Mar 1, 2018

Depends on what you want to grow. None of those current LEDs (including the loop) will be sufficient for higher demanding corals to THRIVE. Emphasis there. Yeah they may cling to life and not die but again, it all depends on your expectations. Do you expect dramatic color and growth you can see by the week or even days? Or do you like to fiddle with knobs and faders and simply want things to not die. Serious questions I’m not being sarcastic. Because this is a situation where you absolutely cannot have your cake and eat it too unless you’re an electrician and a programmer. You can get LEDs that will allow sps corals to thrive...along with full control and effects (which are pointless btw and you’ll tire of that inside of a week), but you’ll pay for it. It will not be cheap.

The options that allow full control and automation, at a rock bottom price point are going ton immediately sacrifice power and cooling to keep the price point low. The ones that keep the price point low but have tons of power will sacrifice programming and controllability, the ones that have power AND controllability AND a cheaper price point will largely fall in the DIY area which requires a bit of skill not all of us have. May not look clean and concise though.

There will be a give and take. If you want LEDs to work as well as your old metal halides did. You need higher power diodes (3-5 watt per diode area), the correct spectrum, hang them high, set your intensity, and just leave them alone. Don’t muck with random cloud cover, lightening effects, random changes of settings to show off to your friends or just for the heck of it. The best led grown tanks are the ones that literally treat the LEDs like they’re a bulb. Don’t adjust them. On. Off, and be done with it

Bpb · Mar 1, 2018

Depends on what you want to grow. None of those current LEDs (including the loop) will be sufficient for higher demanding corals to THRIVE. Emphasis there. Yeah they may cling to life and not die but again, it all depends on your expectations. Do you expect dramatic color and growth you can see by the week or even days? Or do you like to fiddle with knobs and faders and simply want things to not die. Serious questions I’m not being sarcastic. Because this is a situation where you absolutely cannot have your cake and eat it too unless you’re an electrician and a programmer. You can get LEDs that will allow sps corals to thrive...along with full control and effects (which are pointless btw and you’ll tire of that inside of a week), but you’ll pay for it. It will not be cheap.

The options that allow full control and automation, at a rock bottom price point are going to immediately sacrifice power and cooling to keep the price point low. The ones that keep the price point low but have tons of power will sacrifice programming and controllability. The ones that have power AND controllability AND a cheaper price point will largely fall in the DIY area which requires a bit of skill not all of us have. May not look clean and concise though.

There will be a give and take. If you want LEDs to work as well as your old metal halides did. You need higher power diodes (3-5 watt per diode area), the correct spectrum, hang them high, set your intensity, and just leave them alone. Don’t muck with random cloud cover, lightening effects, random changes of settings to show off to your friends or just for the heck of it. The best led grown tanks are the ones that literally treat the LEDs like they’re a single bulb. Don’t adjust them. On. Off, and be done with it

mcarroll · Mar 1, 2018

Current orbit marine pro is worth a look if you think they won't grow corals.

Mfannan · Mar 1, 2018

so, I've been mulling this over, and here is what I've come up with... Im thinking about using 2 24" makersLED heatsinks, and then two 100w dreamchips on each of those, with 5 drivers per chip, for a total of 20 drivers, I was thinking of running the PWM dimmer control for all 20 in parallel for a total of 5 dimmer channels that I can then control via arduino (no problem, I can code, do it everyday..) Then I want to supplement that with a total of 4 39w T5HO bulbs in actinic...

How does that sound??? Also, has anyone ever had an issue running the ldd-700h's in parallel (off the dimming control such as a stormx or equivalent)

This seems to be a good idea to me, and I can build the whole thing in less than a day.. otherwise I'm probably going down the metal halide road again, even though it chews through power...

Mfannan · Mar 1, 2018

I

Mfannan said:
so, I've been mulling this over, and here is what I've come up with... Im thinking about using 2 24" makersLED heatsinks, and then two 100w dreamchips on each of those, with 5 drivers per chip, for a total of 20 drivers, I was thinking of running the PWM dimmer control for all 20 in parallel for a total of 5 dimmer channels that I can then control via arduino (no problem, I can code, do it everyday..) Then I want to supplement that with a total of 4 39w T5HO bulbs in actinic...

How does that sound??? Also, has anyone ever had an issue running the ldd-700h's in parallel (off the dimming control such as a stormx or equivalent)

This seems to be a good idea to me, and I can build the whole thing in less than a day.. otherwise I'm probably going down the metal halide road again, even though it chews through power...

I should start a build thread as well I suppose shouldn't I?

jda · Mar 1, 2018

Get some 150W HQI with real HQI ballasts, use 14k Phoenix bulbs, change them every other year. Get some T5 or ReefBrites if you want dusk/dawn and change them when they go out.

This is high quality, low cost, low wattage (yes, 150w to ADEQUATELY cover a 2x2 area is low) and you will be able to keep just about anything, anywhere with a tried-and-true performer.

Mfannan · Mar 1, 2018

jda said:
Get some 150W HQI with real HQI ballasts, use 14k Phoenix bulbs, change them every other year. Get some T5 or ReefBrites if you want dusk/dawn and change them when they go out.

This is high quality, low cost, low wattage (yes, 150w to ADEQUATELY cover a 2x2 area is low) and you will be able to keep just about anything, anywhere with a tried-and-true performer.

Every other year on metal halides? I used to change them every 9 mos. or so, have they improved that much?

jda · Mar 1, 2018

I change my DE 14k Phoenix every other year. I still do change the Radiums every year if I remember on time, but they have slipped to 18. I have a high-end acropora tank with most smooth skinned and deepwater stuff and they do not miss a beat when I replace the bulbs every other Valentines Day... like I never changed them. I have a box of new bulbs on hand too... so this is deliberate, not a cheap-out thing. There was an article in Reefkeeping magazine that showed that the output difference from month 12 to 24 was very minimal and the spectrum was still fine - yes, they are lower output than new, but most of the drop is in the first few months. I would not change all bulbs every 24 months, but the Phoenix is OK.

It is a game-changer where most people replace LED fixtures before the fourth year, yet I have only changed bulbs twice. $59 bulb seems cheap to me.

Mfannan · Mar 1, 2018

jda said:
I change my DE 14k Phoenix every other year. I still do change the Radiums every year if I remember on time, but they have slipped to 18. I have a high-end acropora tank with most smooth skinned and deepwater stuff and they do not miss a beat when I replace the bulbs every other Valentines Day... like I never changed them. I have a box of new bulbs on hand too... so this is deliberate, not a cheap-out thing. There was an article in Reefkeeping magazine that showed that the output difference from month 12 to 24 was very minimal and the spectrum was still fine - yes, they are lower output than new, but most of the drop is in the first few months. I would not change all bulbs every 24 months, but the Phoenix is OK.

It is a game-changer where most people replace LED fixtures before the fourth year, yet I have only changed bulbs twice. $59 bulb seems cheap to me.

Jesus,

You got me started, I've got in the garage a couple of old 150w MH dimmable ballasts, and the phoenix is ANSI compatible with them, I can run 3 or 4 150w MH if I don't need to replace them every nine months, plus, they are dimming capable.. (however, I've never hooked them up to a dimmer) Unless someone has a really good reason, I think I am going to be building some dimmable MH fixtures and supplementing with dimmable t5's...