Moonshiners method feedback

Secondly, there is no scientific basis that establishes limits that these trace elements can take without causing issues.

That's a key issue, no matter how accurate tests are. It requires much more complicated testing.

Like any method that involves lots of different factors, the best one can say from one or even many great tanks using it is:

1. It works well if you do everything in the method

2. It might work equally well if you did just one (or two or three..) aspect(s) of the method.

That doesn't take away from the utility of the method. It does take away from the knowledge of what is actually important to do, and what is not.
 
The trust-me, black-box things happening here should be a warning sign too. This conclusion by Dr. Joshi disturbed me too since we have seen these kind of things before from. "Proprietary" should be treated as a four-letter-word in this industry, given our background... or at least cause for concern.

The companies have done little to inspire trust to the general reef user, and they don’t seem to be working together to establish baselines so we are all on the same page. I have contacted some individual companies and spent time talking about their testing, and the methods used to establish confidence in the data (usually considered proprietary information) and yet there is significant variability in the data across companies,...[/quote}
 
I would say science is usually a ever evolving process with no 100% guaranty on anything since it can evolve over time. Why do we have to be against anecdotal things all the time if that’s what science uses to actually prove anything?
 
I would say science is usually a ever evolving process with no 100% guaranty on anything since it can evolve over time. Why do we have to be against anecdotal things all the time if that’s what science uses to actually prove anything?
Not trying to pick a fight but pretty sure most scientists would say that anecdotal things can lead to experimentation that may or may not prove something but are not, in themselves, proof of anything.
 
@jda

IMG_0508.jpeg

forgive my crude photo, my lights are off and had to use a flashlight. However your above post is about PC Rainbow.I’d like to submit mine..


IMG_3287.jpeg
that's a super easy coral to grow.

Have one box of reef crystals left. I am at the point where I need to decide if I want to try the moonshine method, something else, or keep doing water changes.
180g w 40g sump
Mixed reef atm but would like to get into sticks a bit more.
Medium bioload.
For those of you that Shine do you like it? How long, what other methods have you used.
Pro cons

I'm not going to go over any pros and cons because I feel like they are only particular to me and every system is different so my con could be your pro.

I just quit the shine at about 8-9 months in, it wasn't worth it for me, i didn't feel like i was getting the results i wanted, I feel like I'm seeing better results now getting back to weekly 20% water changes and feeding the tank more. the no waterchanges did appeal to me but I don't believe my system was benefiting from it and I didn't skimp on testing or dosing every element "required" I used everything Andre sold. the icp tests seemed to be good sometimes but some tests felt like a waste of time and money and the last couple of tests I did the whole send in two tests with the same tank water and thats what finally did me in when the results were so far off from each other.

I'd suggest doing whatever is easiest and what you are interested in doing, it's your hobby. I like to try things and see what happens when I do things differently it's like playing around with stuff and enjoyable for me. I can easily make and store large amounts of water and mixing up fresh batches of water and doing waterchanges is not to bad so it's the easiest thing that I believe I get the best results with and for right now it's the way I choose to go after trying RM and deciding its not for me at this time.

good luck with your journey!
 

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that's a super easy coral to grow.



I'm not going to go over any pros and cons because I feel like they are only particular to me and every system is different so my con could be your pro.

I just quit the shine at about 8-9 months in, it wasn't worth it for me, i didn't feel like i was getting the results i wanted, I feel like I'm seeing better results now getting back to weekly 20% water changes and feeding the tank more. the no waterchanges did appeal to me but I don't believe my system was benefiting from it and I didn't skimp on testing or dosing every element "required" I used everything Andre sold. the icp tests seemed to be good sometimes but some tests felt like a waste of time and money and the last couple of tests I did the whole send in two tests with the same tank water and thats what finally did me in when the results were so far off from each other.

I'd suggest doing whatever is easiest and what you are interested in doing, it's your hobby. I like to try things and see what happens when I do things differently it's like playing around with stuff and enjoyable for me. I can easily make and store large amounts of water and mixing up fresh batches of water and doing waterchanges is not to bad so it's the easiest thing that I believe I get the best results with and for right now it's the way I choose to go after trying RM and deciding its not for me at this time.

good luck with your journey!
it is a 100 percent easy coral to grow. I concur entirely! was more or less speaking to the method of RM trying to replicate NSW and with JDA comment how NSW pulls the rainbow color In that coral specifically.
 
I would say science is usually a ever evolving process with no 100% guaranty on anything since it can evolve over time. Why do we have to be against anecdotal things all the time if that’s what science uses to actually prove anything?

Sure, lots of science starts with anecdotes to generate hypotheses to test.

The “to test” part is what’s missing.

I would commend anyone testing any idea they have.

And I accept that since such testing is hard, many folks may just hedge their bets and skip the test, and add the chemical.

Nothing wrong with that, but it is not evidence of anything.

There is an almost unlimited supply of things people do in all aspects of their lives with no clear evidence of it really accomplishing what they hope it does. They do it anyway.
 
Not trying to pick a fight but pretty sure most scientists would say that anecdotal things can lead to experimentation that may or may not prove something but are not, in themselves, proof of anything.

Yes, exactly. :)
 
But who has the burden of proof in this situation?
No offense but I see what my tank is and I can accept that this is one way of doing it but to discredit what I see without actually putting in the time , effort or money doesn’t make me wrong or right but the same is true for the people trying to discredit it as well.
 
Agreed
My ' anecdotal" input is:
I, over the last year or so, have tried all of the different ICP vendors, including OCEAMO, and found them pretty consistently showing below optimal readings for Vanadium, Nickel, Zinc and Iodine. Seems to be similar to what others using AFR and Kalk have reported. Being around the hobby for several decades, I have learned to be a skeptic, especially when people report near miraculous results. But since I seemed to get consistent results and the Reff Blueprint system required only $20 to get started I thought there was no harm in giving it a try.
My anecdotal observations are that my Euphyllias, mushrooms and Gonis have responded positively to something with increased polyp extension. I don't notice anything, one way or the other with my sps's other than possibly some increased growth and or coloration with a few of my monti's. What I am most curious about is what the ICP results will be over the next few tests after dosing at the prescribed rate afore the afore-mentioned elements.
Since I already send in bi-monthly ICP tests I don't really see the harm in an additional $20 investment that so far will last at least 2 months.
 
Yea but not with AFR. Boron and barium yes. But I haven’t really had to dose fluoride or Moly much when using AFR.

Yeah not sure about AFR. It also depends on potency, and every system is consuming differently. In general, it’s those elements I listed above that I see supplemented the most with RMS.
 
My ' anecdotal" input is:
I, over the last year or so, have tried all of the different ICP vendors, including OCEAMO, and found them pretty consistently showing below optimal readings for Vanadium, Nickel, Zinc and Iodine.

I’d say that is a very accurate assessment. :-)
 
It really comes down to water chemistry. I think most will agree with that. I’ve never seen a reef with absent elements or depleted elements produce anything amazing. If it did, it definitely didn’t do it quickly. Corals may grow “slowly” over time and “adapt” to suboptimal conditions, but most reefers who care for their animals will not leave them in poor conditions if they know how to fix it. Isn’t that why we’re all here on these forums and social media groups? We’re sharing information looking for the “fastest” way to grow corals. We want our corals healthy and growing. We want colorful corals. Why would a person not correct depleted elements.? I may never understand. It can’t be about safety concerns. I’ll elaborate more below. I’ve seen guys literally spend their kids college money in this hobby chasing down coral growth. It’s really peculiar that some are so against correcting their chemistry. It’s the very foundation of coral growth.

In the beginning testing was limited to basic water parameters (pretty much still is at home). Reefers would have paid anything to have the technology and data we have available today. Back then, merely keeping a brown Acropora alive was considered a win. For years we wished and hoped we could test for “everything” and now we don’t want it.?

“We’ll, the ICP’s aren’t accurate.”

Which ICP? Yes, there’s been companies in it for the money and they’ll tell you anything, but I don’t see that with Christoph. He works hard, he’s a Chemist, and more importantly he’s one of us.

I’ve literally watched OCEAMO’s ICP-MS results color up my reef with targeted precision. There may be some uncertainties, but it’s not enough to effect my corals. I can tell you want it’s doing though, it’s growing them.

Double standards are being applied to ICP analysis or Reef Moonshiner’s who uses ICP analysis as a tool, but not for hobby grade test kits at home. Hobby grade kits are difficult to read for most folks. I personally don’t trust myself with Colorimetric, and Titration gives me a headache. I only use them when I can’t rely on ICP data, and I try to use Hanna Checkers so that I can get an actual number. I know their not perfect, but if you know your reef, you’ll know when a value isn’t accurate. If we apply these standards to ICP-MS, we need to apply them across the board. With limited data from hobby grade test kits, we can only correct about 1/4 of the elements. We can’t test for most pollutants. Source water likely isn’t being tested. If the issue is about safety, which sounds safer to you?
 
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I have been doing RM for one year. Previously I was using TM balling with A and K trace. Will never run a tank without RM in the future. Being organized with previous data and adjusting a few elements along the way you can really find a sweet spot and understand what elements your tank needs more help with. Here is a one year difference photo. I also run Kalk+2 but don't tell Andre Happy Reefing. I dont share my tank very much online. Typically only a few IG pics here and there.
 

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I also run Kalk+2

Just an unrelated fyi, that isn't adding any significant amount of magnesium unless you dose it as an undissolved slurry. It contains less magnesium than typical food grade calcium hydroxide that I used, and almost none can dissolve in kalkwasser anyway.
 
Just an unrelated fyi, that isn't adding any significant amount of magnesium unless you dose it as an undissolved slurry. It contains less magnesium than typical food grade calcium hydroxide that I used, and almost none can dissolve in kalkwasser anyway.
Agreed. No slurry here. Honestly I chose this calcium hydroxide due to Jake Adams using it. I know... sounds like a stupid reason. I still have to supplement magnesium and strontium so doesn't really have much of an impact. I have been considering switching to an alternative. I've seen a lot of data, and experienced it, that shows BW Kalk+2's PH concentrations diminish more rapidly than other's on the market.
 
I have been doing RM for one year. Previously I was using TM balling with A and K trace. Will never run a tank without RM in the future. Being organized with previous data and adjusting a few elements along the way you can really find a sweet spot and understand what elements your tank needs more help with. Here is a one year difference photo. I also run Kalk+2 but don't tell Andre Happy Reefing. I dont share my tank very much online. Typically only a few IG pics here and there.

Corals don’t lie. Well done. You can come stick that in my living-room.
 
Just an unrelated fyi, that isn't adding any significant amount of magnesium unless you dose it as an undissolved slurry. It contains less magnesium than typical food grade calcium hydroxide that I used, and almost none can dissolve in kalkwasser anyway.
Seems like a good idea on the surface to slowly add mag to keep it more stable, but if it’s not enough than maybe not. I just recently added remag to my reactor chamber to slow down the swings. I previously had it in there and had to dig it out because the tank wasn’t consuming enough and kept watching it trend up on each ICP. I was thinking what in the world is adding magnesium to my tank!! I totally forget I added remag early on. This time I added a 1/4 of the bag and will slowly keep adding until I get it close to stable.

Agreed. No slurry here.

What is your Strontium correction like? Is it keeping that closer to target or you still need to correct? Or is it trending too high sometimes?
 
I still have to supplement magnesium and strontium so doesn't really have much of an impact.

Heh, should have read a little further down before asked that question above. Well, at least it’s not hurting anything. How old is the tank, what lighting?
 

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