Moonshiners vs Reef BluePrint

[GuppyHJD]

I have been looking into the Moonshiners method of controlling the elements in the aquarium. I visited my LFS who advised I consider using the Reef Labs ICP test and the Reef Blueprint chemicals instead. Both systems seem to have a calculator for dosing.

Anyone using the Reef Blueprint system? Any experiences with the ReefLabs ICP tests? I had Reef Masters LFS do an ICP test two years ago and it was missing many elements. Now that ReefLabs seem to have been setup as a separate company, I am wondering about the quality of their tests?

If I had paid attention in high school and college chemistry class, I would consider creating a batch of saltwater with known chemical additives and then send it to ATI, Oceamo, ReefLabs, etc and see what the results returned.

 

[Saltyreef]

I have been looking into the Moonshiners method of controlling the elements in the aquarium. I visited my LFS who advised I consider using the Reef Labs ICP test and the Reef Blueprint chemicals instead. Both systems seem to have a calculator for dosing.

Anyone using the Reef Blueprint system? Any experiences with the ReefLabs ICP tests? I had Reef Masters LFS do an ICP test two years ago and it was missing many elements. Now that ReefLabs seem to have been setup as a separate company, I am wondering about the quality of their tests?

If I had paid attention in high school and college chemistry class, I would consider creating a batch of saltwater with known chemical additives and then send it to ATI, Oceamo, ReefLabs, etc and see what the results returned.

A bit confused as to what you are after.

Is your LFS (reef masters?) associated with this company reef labs?

I do know reef moonshiners has all if not more elements available for purchase than the icp test detects.

As far as the sample you had your LFS test that they said was missing many elements, did you give them a sample of fresh mixed salt water?? Or was it used tank water?

What brand salt? And what was the salinity reading of the sample?

 

[GuppyHJD]

A bit confused as to what you are after.

Is your LFS (reef masters?) associated with this company reef labs?

I do know reef moonshiners has all if not more elements available for purchase than the icp test detects.

As far as the sample you had your LFS test that they said was missing many elements, did you give them a sample of fresh mixed salt water?? Or was it used tank water?

What brand salt? And what was the salinity reading of the sample?

I am asking if anyone has used Reef BluePrint element dosing and Moonshiners program? I am wondering how they compare?

No, I have been in Reef Masters but it is closed and I freqent a different LFS.

I use Instant Ocean salt. The salinity on the last ICP was 1.023.

 

[Perthegallon]

I have been looking into the Moonshiners method of controlling the elements in the aquarium. I visited my LFS who advised I consider using the Reef Labs ICP test and the Reef Blueprint chemicals instead. Both systems seem to have a calculator for dosing.

Anyone using the Reef Blueprint system? Any experiences with the ReefLabs ICP tests? I had Reef Masters LFS do an ICP test two years ago and it was missing many elements. Now that ReefLabs seem to have been setup as a separate company, I am wondering about the quality of their tests?

If I had paid attention in high school and college chemistry class, I would consider creating a batch of saltwater with known chemical additives and then send it to ATI, Oceamo, ReefLabs, etc and see what the results returned.

I have a masters In chem and literally couldn’t do that lol!

 

[Saltyreef]

I am asking if anyone has used Reef BluePrint element dosing and Moonshiners program? I am wondering how they compare?

No, I have been in Reef Masters but it is closed and I freqent a different LFS.

I use Instant Ocean salt. The salinity on the last ICP was 1.023.

Your initial post was extremely confusing and this reply doesnt help one bit lol.

Seeing as store.reef-masters.com doesnt have any info available on reef blueprint or products to buy online, id say reef moonshiners is your best bet.

Good luck!

 

[Perthegallon]

Your initial post was extremely confusing and this reply doesnt help one bit lol.

Seeing as store.reef-masters.com doesnt have any info available on reef blueprint or products to buy online, id say reef moonshiners is your best bet.

Good luck!

Yeah that’s a 10% built assignment

 

[RGoltz]

Consider the following:

• Is information readily available, including documentation on executing the methodology/method?
• What is the level of support?
• Is there some significant number of systems that have been running the method successfully?

 

[rtparty]

I ran the Moonshiners method for close to 2 years. It worked very well but I stopped. Why? Because you spend a lot of money to be told that no one really knows what each element is doing. Then you ask a true chemist like Randy what element X does and he’ll tell you what is actually happening. There are many elements these methods dose that have no known biological role.

I went back to water changes and stopped dosing 20 bottles a day of mostly snake oil. I say snake oil because if 10 people dose the same trace element, there will be no consensus on what it is doing, if anything.

Guess what happened to my tank? It got better after stopping. Why? There are things we can’t test for organic and inorganic. They build up over time and a water change is the only way to remove them.

I did add Tropic Marin A and K to my 2 part so I am getting some trace elements but haven’t ICP tested in months. I am going to send one off to see how things are but the tank tells me more than an ICP test ever can. Corals are growing and coloring very nicely right now so I know all is well.

 

[paintman]

I ran the Moonshiners method for close to 2 years. It worked very well but I stopped. Why? Because you spend a lot of money to be told that no one really knows what each element is doing. Then you ask a true chemist like Randy what element X does and he’ll tell you what is actually happening. There are many elements these methods dose that have no known biological role.

I went back to water changes and stopped dosing 20 bottles a day of mostly snake oil. I say snake oil because if 10 people dose the same trace element, there will be no consensus on what it is doing, if anything.

Guess what happened to my tank? It got better after stopping. Why? There are things we can’t test for organic and inorganic. They build up over time and a water change is the only way to remove them.

I did add Tropic Marin A and K to my 2 part so I am getting some trace elements but haven’t ICP tested in months. I am going to send one off to see how things are but the tank tells me more than an ICP test ever can. Corals are growing and coloring very nicely right now so I know all is well.

Not to mention that Andre always wants you to run your numbers higher then actual sea water. Cha Ching!!!!
No way is the Moonshine cheaper then doing water changes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am asking if anyone has used Reef BluePrint element dosing and Moonshiners program? I am wondering how they compare?

No, I have been in Reef Masters but it is closed and I freqent a different LFS.

I use Instant Ocean salt. The salinity on the last ICP was 1.023.

There are four ways that I can think of to compare single element dosing:

1. Availability of elements that you believe you need
2. Cost for any individual element
3. Purity of each element
4. Suitable chemical forms of the elements being dosed

Some comments on each:

1. You likely do not need all elements that ICP says are low, but that's up to the reefer to decide.
2. Lot of work to figure out.
3. Purity needs to be sufficient to prevent cross contamination of elements when dosing (say, adding boron to your target does not push vanadium higher than your target. Mostly this will be an issue for dosing major ions (where you add a lot) and contaminating trace elements (where the target level is very little).
cross
4. Chemical form may not be mentioned, and if not, you are trusting that the company used a suitable form.

I've not tried to carry out any of these analyses for either of the companies in question, but I would think about them if I were to proceed with ICP testing and dosing.

Finally, I'll note that it seems perfectly fine to pick and choose where and what you use. Iron from Fergon tablets from a drug store, boron from Moonshiners, vanadium from BluePrint, calcium from BRS, choosing to not dose barium or rubidium, etc. there's no inherent reason to stick with just one supplier. It's not like they are formulated to go together in some preferable fashion.

 

[danieyella]

I did reef moonshiners for awhile, it seemed to help a lot. LPS fluffier, gorgs growing like crazy, leathers became monsters.... I stopped being so dedicated, sent off an ICP every 4ish months for "corrections", and just dosed the 4 dailies he provides regularly - I didn't notice any decline. BUT - I don't keep SPS.

Right now I have a smaller tank set up from when I was doing moonshiners and am only doing the dailies, and only when I remember (no doser set up on this one) - I do intend to switch back to it after the move with the bigger tank set up again - at least while I still have all the elements. I'm not sure if I'll keep it up longer term but I may as well use up what I do have. I did a variety of things prior to moonshiners, and I will say the tank responded best to it of everything so far. And you 100% do not have to use his elements specifically, you can save money getting things elsewhere with no problems.

 

[Dburr1014]

I use Instant Ocean salt. The salinity on the last ICP was 1.023.

I don't have much more to add than what's been said. But this comment... You do know you can make this any number you want. Just add a little more salt and make it 1.025/1.026

 

[rtparty]

Not to mention that Andre always wants you to run your numbers higher then actual sea water. Cha Ching!!!!
No way is the Moonshine cheaper then doing water changes.

Except water changes don't replenish most, if not all, trace elements. There is not a single salt that purposely adds elevated trace elements. Any that do have elevated trace elements are an impurity from a raw material or even multiple raw materials.

I think I spent like $300 with Andre over 2.5 years. Water changes would have been a TON more assuming they could even replenish trace elements.

 

[Saltyreef]

Except water changes don't replenish most, if not all, trace elements. There is not a single salt that purposely adds elevated trace elements. Any that do have elevated trace elements are an impurity from a raw material or even multiple raw materials.

I think I spent like $300 with Andre over 2.5 years. Water changes would have been a TON more assuming they could even replenish trace elements.

Not according to ATI analysis...

And this is a very NSW geared salt.

Red Sea Blue Bucket ICP Results (ATI)

I mixed up a fresh batch saltwater using Red Sea Blue bucket at 35 and sent off to ATI. Sharing here. To me the results below are confirmatory of its quality and gives me food for thought when putting these in to the moonshiners method spreadsheet. When doing so only very minor things are...

www.reef2reef.com

But I'm not arguing so correct me if you think I'm wrong...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

But I'm not arguing so correct me if you think I'm wrong...

Well... lol

I'm not sure how the ICP you linked suggested it can replace trace elements at all. Many are below detection limits (nickel, manganese, chromium, cobalt, iron, copper , selenium, zinc) and others are below the ATI target (iodine, molybdenum, silicon, strontium).

.

 

[Saltyreef]

I'm not sure how the ICP you linked suggested it can replace trace elements at all. Many are below detection limits (nickel, manganese, chromium, cobalt, iron, copper , selenium, zinc) and others are below the ATI target (iodine, molybdenum, silicon, strontium).

Thanks for the correction!
I missed that.

Alternatively heres a triton analysis.

Triton results for Red Sea Blue Bucket

I couldn't find the old thread where people where posting these tests. I've been trying to nail down why high levels of BA and Zn where in my system so I decided to test a fresh batch of Red Sea Blue bucket mixed to 35ppt. I notice elevated levels of BA and ZN which I guess have built up in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[saltyfins]

I'll stick with Andre, the moonshine and group. There is so much help in that place, and everyone is on the same page. There's a lot to learn, none of us have it all down, but I can honestly say that the help in that group, is phenomenal! the growth I have seen, is amazing. sps dominant