More bio balls means less nitrate?

[Jasongtr]

Is it as simple as that?

For example I'm about to set up a little nano tank, obviously there's limited space for both display rock and media, but is it as simple as the more bio ball media I have the more nitrate I can reduce as nutrient control is always a challenge in nano tanks.

I realise populating the media takes time.

 

[Hot2na]

are you talking bio balls or those ceramic balls ? one will produce nitrate if used in a "trickle" style filter

 

[Jasongtr]

are you talking bio balls or those ceramic balls ? one will produce nitrate if used in a "trickle" style filter

Maxspect nano-tech bio sphere to be more precise

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

I've never personally noticed a nitrate reducing effect with marine pure spares.
Which I may be wrong but I think are a similar product.
If it's not regularly cleaned in tank water, the effects can be quite the opposite
The appeal of it is the vast area in which BB can populate.

 

[Lasse]

Running them aerobic (with oxygen) - they will work as nitrifying media (rise NO3 - nitrate). Running them anaerobic (without oxygen) together with a fast DOC (dissolved organic carbon) source they will consume NO3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jasongtr]

I've never personally noticed a nitrate reducing effect with marine pure spares.
Which I may be wrong but I think are a similar product.
If it's not regularly cleaned in tank water, the effects can be quite the opposite
The appeal of it is the vast area in which BB can populate.

They will be removed and rinsed with old tank water each water change, once on a 3d printed rack they will be so easy to remove, rinse and replace

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

They will be removed and rinsed with old tank water each water change, once on a 3d printed rack they will be so easy to remove, rinse and replace

I keep mine in a mesh bag so similar theory.
Before I removed them to clean regularly I noticed stubborn no3 levels.
Similar to the coarse bubble trap sponge in that respect:a great surface area for BB but do require cleaning.
I'm a big fan of them in a sump over live rock rubble overall

 

[Jasongtr]

I keep mine in a mesh bag so similar theory.
Before I removed them to clean regularly I noticed stubborn no3 levels.
Similar to the coarse bubble trap sponge in that respect:a great surface area for BB but do require cleaning.
I'm a big fan of them in a sump over live rock rubble overall

I had small balls in a mesh bag and found they were a pain but these are pretty big and in the back of a little fluval evo in 3d printed media baskets will be very easy to remove, I was considering extra at the very bottom under the baskets but I may leave that are clear in case I want to run a bag of gfo or carbon

I only bought 1kg of them but will have quite a lot left over so I'll print a rack and put them in my sump on the bigger tank

 

[Lasse]

They will be removed and rinsed with old tank water each water change, once on a 3d printed rack they will be so easy to remove, rinse and replace

Hence - you will not get any denitrification only nitrification and the water change will decrease the NO3 concentration produced.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jasongtr]

Hence - you will not get any denitrification only nitrification and the water change will decrease the NO3 concentration produced.

Sincerely Lasse

So are you suggesting they are not rinsed to remove detritus, seems like a double edge sword if so

 

[Lasse]

The classic denitrification needs anaerobic conditions and a fast Dissolved Carbon Source in order to work. The other known bacterial process that's decrease inorganic N in significant amounts is the anammox process - also happens during anaerobic conditions. Yes - as long as oxygen is available organic detritus will be mineralised into inorganic compounds like CO2, NH4/NH3 and PO4. NH3/NH4 will further be processed to NO3 in aerobic conditions (anaerobic = without oxygen / aerobic = with oxygen) The trick is to create anaerobic condition which force the bacteria to use NO3 in the metabolism instead of O2 (or for the anammox process - directly transform NH3/NH4 into N2 gas with help of NO2 (Nitrite))

The trick is to have nerve enough and maybe also use som DOC (as vodka, ethanol) in order both to speed up the process into anaerobic conditions and help the anaerobic denitrification process. It may take a long period before it works and its also demands a slow flow through the media. In this thread you can get some ideas

But in a Nano - do WC in order to control NO3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jasongtr]

The classic denitrification needs anaerobic conditions and a fast Dissolved Carbon Source in order to work. The other known bacterial process that's decrease inorganic N in significant amounts is the anammox process - also happens during anaerobic conditions. Yes - as long as oxygen is available organic detritus will be mineralised into inorganic compounds like CO2, NH4/NH3 and PO4. NH3/NH4 will further be processed to NO3 in aerobic conditions (anaerobic = without oxygen / aerobic = with oxygen) The trick is to create anaerobic condition which force the bacteria to use NO3 in the metabolism instead of O2 (or for the anammox process - directly transform NH3/NH4 into N2 gas with help of NO2 (Nitrite))

The trick is to have nerve enough and maybe also use som DOC (as vodka, ethanol) in order both to speed up the process into anaerobic conditions and help the anaerobic denitrification process. It may take a long period before it works and its also demands a slow flow through the media. In this thread you can get some ideas

But in a Nano - do WC in order to control NO3

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks, didn't understand much of that but didn't think I would, so in a scenario of what I first suggested, bio balls to build bacteria with fairly regular rising in old tank water to remove detritus are you saying there's little or no benefits to keeping these bio balls?

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

So are you suggesting they are not rinsed to remove detritus, seems like a double edge sword if so

Thanks, didn't understand much of that but didn't think I would, so in a scenario of what I first suggested, bio balls to build bacteria with fairly regular rising in old tank water to remove detritus are you saying there's little or no benefits to keeping these bio balls?

Lasse explained that in a far more erudite manner than I could
Essentially, unless you are carbon dosing (be that via vinegar, vodka, nopox, zeostart etc etc) & keep your balls(no laughing you lot) in a very low flow area devoid of oxygen-you likely won't see any no3 reducing benefit to them.

If you view it as a great way to hold beneficial bacteria it's an excellent choice as they surface area is huge.

In a nano I would imagine water changes & prudent feeding will be your primary method of no3 control

 

[Jasongtr]

Lasse explained that in a far more erudite manner than I could
Essentially, unless you are carbon dosing (be that via vinegar, vodka, nopox, zeostart etc etc) & keep your balls(no laughing you lot) in a very low flow area devoid of oxygen-you likely won't see any no3 reducing benefit to them.

If you view it as a great way to hold beneficial bacteria it's an excellent choice as they surface area is huge.

In a nano I would imagine water changes & prudent feeding will be your primary method of no3 control

Ok so the original title of the thread is seemingly more complex than I first thought or understand but so long as getting as many of these things in the back of this AIO and rinsing detritus in old tank water means it's doing something positive by way of beneficial bacteria then that's all good

 

[Lasse]

many of these things in the back of this AIO and rinsing detritus in old tank water means it's doing something positive by way of beneficial bacteria then that's all good

Its more complicated that that. With cleaning of old organic matter - you will favour the nitrification bacteria. hence higher nitrification rate - higher NO3 concentrations. Not said its negative - but it will favour nitrification rate. Please see this

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks, didn't understand much of that but didn't think I would, so in a scenario of what I first suggested, bio balls to build bacteria with fairly regular rising in old tank water to remove detritus are you saying there's little or no benefits to keeping these bio balls?

I think bio balls and ALL media that promote nitrification are a detriment and I do not recommend using them.

Contrary to opinions of many companies selling various types of nitrification boosting products, it is not desirable to boost nitrification. It just steals ammonia from corals, forcing them to use more nitrate, which they have to spend energy to use.

 

[Jasongtr]

I think bio balls and ALL media that promote nitrification are a detriment and I do not recommend using them.

Contrary to opinions of many companies selling various types of nitrification boosting products, it is not desirable to boost nitrification. It just steals ammonia from corals, forcing them to use more nitrate, which they have to spend energy to use.

Would that not further reduce nitrate levels?

BTW there are no corals in this tank yet and will likely be a softie tank in any event

 

[Hubert J. Farnsworth]

i wouldn't worry about reducing nitrates in a softies only tank, personally. they do quite well with higher nitrates. even even had a large colony of sinularia and other softies keep nitrates barely detectable with heavy feeding and infrequent water changes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Would that not further reduce nitrate levels?

BTW there are no corals in this tank yet and will likely be a softie tank in any event

Not sure what you mean by “that”. There are many different processes relating to nitrate with vs without more biomedia, and I’d be hard pressed to predict any particular outcome with respect to nitrate levels.

Long ago when people were removing bioballs from trickle filters, nitrates often declined, and there are at least 2 reasons to explain that result, but that’s a different type of media than those that claim to also promote denitrification.

 

[exnisstech]

On a nano with softies you may not even need to worry about additional nitrate removal. Have some type of filtration and change water once every week or two and you'll probably be fine. My softies do fine in NO3 10-20 and PO4 0.2-0.35
A couple of mine