Moving from Red Sea to Aquaforest - information needed

[allrover75]

Hi,

I have just upgraded from a 250 litre tank to a 1000 litre, and in the new tank I decided to start using Aquaforest products, compared to Red Sea in the old one.

In hindsight, moving my corals between tanks, and changing their salt & supplements at the same time was maybe not very wise, as most of my corals are reacting badly to varying degrees. After a week in the new tank, a torch colony is melting away, and most of my SPS are looking like they are starting to bleach - not terminal yet, but they seem to be getting worse not better.

Water tests all fine for the usual like Nitrate & phosphate etc. Mag & Calc are also fine - it is Alk where I see a massive difference compared to Red Sea. Even freshly mixed, the water is only around 7.0, and I have seen it dip to 6.7 whilst I get my 1,2,3 supplement dosing dialled in.

Can someone from Red Sea advise how their system works with such low alkalinity levels, when all the research I have read to date points to a high alkalinity being essential for coral growth. At the moment, I am worried, and being tempted to buffer the alk back up to the 8-9 range I used to run it at. I guess I just need some reassurance that 6.5-8 is indeed the Aquaforest recommended range, and an explanation of how that still allows coral growth compared to higher levels, so I have the confidence to continue.

Thanks

 

[Aquaforest]

Hello,
Moving corals is always risk. That + changing method is difficult for corals - they have to adapt to new conditions and to new products.
Did you dose any bacteria when you move your corals to new tank?
Can you please tell us more about your tank, parameters, photos, what products are you using?
We recommend to keep KH between 6,5-8,00 - that KH is in nature.
7,0-7,3 is best for UNLS method and calcium calcification.


Link to AQUAFOREST GUIDE

 

[HolisticBear]

Can someone from Red Sea advise how their system works with such low alkalinity levels, when all the research I have read to date points to a high alkalinity being essential for coral growth. At the moment, I am worried, and being tempted to buffer the alk back up to the 8-9 range I used to run it at. I guess I just need some reassurance that 6.5-8 is indeed the Aquaforest recommended range, and an explanation of how that still allows coral growth compared to higher levels, so I have the confidence to continue.

I don't have the quote handy, but Red Sea specifically recommends a low alkalinity similar to natural saltwater when running ULNS and a higher alkalinity when their are more nutrients. So they aren't contradictory. There are studies that show higher alkalinity can increase coral growth, but those systems have 'higher" nutrient levels. The same studies show that same alkalinity on a ULNS tends to cause SPS burn and ULNS should run alkalinity closer to NSW.

You just changed systems, and I'm not advising you what to do in your situation, just commenting on the whole high/low alkalinity bit.

 

[re76]

FWIW I maintain my alk around 7.3-7.5 on Aquaforest and have seen great growth.

I don't use Components 1,2,3, but use Pro Bio S, NP Pro, Coral ABEV, and Components A,B,C for trace minerals.

I use a combination of 2-part and kalk to maintain my Alk.

 

[allrover75]

Thanks everyone for your replies.
I'll try to answer all questions in one response.

Here is a FTS of the tank. Its 6ft x2.5 x 2, about 1000 litres including sump. As you can see, its only very lightly stocked with coral and a few fish at present, as this came over from my current 250 litre tank.

20170211_160912 by Chris Parkinson, on Flickr

Cycling
- I have been cycling the tank since Christmas, using a fishless method, and during cycling off the tank I used Dr Tims One and Only for the initial bacterial population, and then have dosed AF Bio S every day since then (10 drops per day)
Dosing
I started dosing off lower than the tank capacity suggests, as the tank is lightly stocked.
- As soon as the Corals went in (9 days ago), I started dosing AF liquid components 1,2 & 3. I only started with a low dose (30ml of each), but I saw alk drop from 7.- to 6.7, observed my corals, and so I have upped the dosage to 80ml per day.
- I am using AF Bio S, and NF Pro. I am dosing once per day, about 5 drops of each. (That's 50% of the recommended dose)

Here are some photos of sad looking corals.
This torch has lost two heads, and more are going
20170214_084103 by Chris Parkinson, on Flickr

What looks to be bleaching from the tips here
20170213_173846 by Chris Parkinson, on Flickr

Some receding from the base here
20170213_173718 by Chris Parkinson, on Flickr

I think this is receding from the tips, almost looks burnt in places
20170209_173855 by Chris Parkinson, on Flickr

 

[allrover75]

With the benefit of hindsight, I can see that I am clearly going to suffer some losses here, it's just a question of how many. I'm not expecting a magic cure from anyone, its just more about understanding why this is happening, so I can understand better the Aquaforest system, as I obviously don't. I've read the guide PDF, but there are a lot of products, many of them that have similar names and jargon filled explanations of what each does! I wish there where more written resources, or video guides.

 

[Centerline]

Just my two cents but you may want to bump the alk to 8 - 9. When you start seeing growth alk can deplete very fast and a little wiggle room might not be a bad idea. BTW, that's a beautiful tank.

 

[Anirban]

Nice tank. If you run ULNS with low Alk (like 7) you can run into danger of bleaching and tissue loss. You need to be very careful as you are walking on a very thin line of balance with less margin for error. One thing are you dosing BioS or Pro Bio S?

 

[allrover75]

Pro Bio S, I had just spotted the error in my second post.
I am also reading the Aquaforest guide again more closely right now. If I classify my tank, it is type 3 - some LPS, less demanding SPS. I would NOT classify myself as an experienced reefkeeper - I have been in the hobby for a year and a half, successfully kept a range of coral alive, but never approached the eye popping colours, or growth rates, of the very best tanks.
I am also time poor, (job plus two young kids), so my approach is always to automate everything eventually. Relying on daily manual dosing for me is a recipe for disaster.

I spotted two things I appear to be doing wrong
- the guide says I only need dose Pro Bio S at each water change, not daily, though I'm sure it's doing no harm that I am right now.
- and for type 3 tanks it doesn't mention NP Pro at all. I used to dose nopox under Red Sea, so assumed I would need NP Pro to replace that.

I think I have picked up things from forum posts I have read, and started off with a sort of hybrid 3.5.

I think right now, the chance of me maintaining an ULNS is low, I think its important to just have everything healthy and safe.

 

[allrover75]

The tank actually looks like this. I have got seriously hooked on the hobby, and went a bit crazy building a fish room etc to fit it in (still finishing the cabinets). I wish my fishkeeping skills matched my building skills!

20170207_202717 by Chris Parkinson, on Flickr

 

[re76]

What are your nitrate and phosphate at?

With an ULN system you need to keep Alk low. I would say stay below 8 dKH.

What has the time frame been for when you started seeing issues? Corals can also react poorly if you strip nutrients too quickly. So if you go from not doing any sort of carbon dosing, to using NP Pro and Pro Bio S too quickly you could have shocked your corals by stripping away all of the nutrients.

The other suspect is obviously the high alk (for ULNS at least) which has already been mentioned.

 

[allrover75]

Hey all, ok I've just completed a full set of tests.
Nitrate 4.0
Phosphate 0.1
Calc 380
Mag 1400
Alk 8.0
Salinity 1.024

Hang on, what about that Alk I hear you say, yes that's right I added some dkh buffer to raise it up.
Calc and mag have both dropped a touch since i last measured them 2 days ago, so i have increased the dosing of all 3 components to 80ml per day across 4 dosings.

So the absence of nutrients is definitely not the problem, if anything there are slightly higher levels of nitrate and phosphate than in my old tank. Nopox kept them down very well. I certainly have not reached ULNS levels in this tank yet, nor am i sure i want to go that far. I dont want to go 100% SPS, and I understand LPS wont suit ULNS

Everything points to the sharp difference in Alk between the two tanks as the cause of the symptoms I am seeing.

This might be my eyes, but even in the few hours since I raised Alk, i have seen greater polyp extension on my Acans since I put them in the tank 9 days ago. Like seriously a startling difference. Fingers crossed for tomorrow!

 

[re76]

Hey all, ok I've just completed a full set of tests.
Nitrate 4.0
Phosphate 0.1
Calc 380
Mag 1400
Alk 8.0
Salinity 1.024

Hang on, what about that Alk I hear you say, yes that's right I added some dkh buffer to raise it up.
Calc and mag have both dropped a touch since i last measured them 2 days ago, so i have increased the dosing of all 3 components to 80ml per day across 4 dosings.

So the absence of nutrients is definitely not the problem, if anything there are slightly higher levels of nitrate and phosphate than in my old tank. Nopox kept them down very well. I certainly have not reached ULNS levels in this tank yet, nor am i sure i want to go that far. I dont want to go 100% SPS, and I understand LPS wont suit ULNS

Everything points to the sharp difference in Alk between the two tanks as the cause of the symptoms I am seeing.

This might be my eyes, but even in the few hours since I raised Alk, i have seen greater polyp extension on my Acans since I put them in the tank 9 days ago. Like seriously a startling difference. Fingers crossed for tomorrow!

Those Nitrate and Phosphate numbers are great just where they are at. I wouldn't try to change them much.

You will want to get your calcium up a bit if you are going to run a lower alk tank. I shoot to stay around 430.

I think 8 is fine for alk. On the higher end of what AF recommends but not going to cause that much of a difference from what I have seen.

 

[allrover75]

Thanks. I have upped my dosing of AF part 1 to ensure Calcium falls no further, and I'll raise it back above 400.
Other than that, I am aiming to keep things stable now.
I'll watch and wait, and update you guys with how things progress.

 

[Centerline]

The tank actually looks like this. I have got seriously hooked on the hobby, and went a bit crazy building a fish room etc to fit it in (still finishing the cabinets). I wish my fishkeeping skills matched my building skills!

20170207_202717 by Chris Parkinson, on Flickr

Wonderful light.

 

[Centerline]

Pro Bio S, I had just spotted the error in my second post.
I am also reading the Aquaforest guide again more closely right now. If I classify my tank, it is type 3 - some LPS, less demanding SPS. I would NOT classify myself as an experienced reefkeeper - I have been in the hobby for a year and a half, successfully kept a range of coral alive, but never approached the eye popping colours, or growth rates, of the very best tanks.
I am also time poor, (job plus two young kids), so my approach is always to automate everything eventually. Relying on daily manual dosing for me is a recipe for disaster.

I spotted two things I appear to be doing wrong
- the guide says I only need dose Pro Bio S at each water change, not daily, though I'm sure it's doing no harm that I am right now.
- and for type 3 tanks it doesn't mention NP Pro at all. I used to dose nopox under Red Sea, so assumed I would need NP Pro to replace that.

I think I have picked up things from forum posts I have read, and started off with a sort of hybrid 3.5.

I think right now, the chance of me maintaining an ULNS is low, I think its important to just have everything healthy and safe.

Smart and practical if you ask me. I have ran ULN systems off and on for years. It is a serious pain in the butt. Yes you may see rapid growth and good coloration but you may also find your tank a total nightmare to take care of. Recently I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get N03 at detectable levels. Not a good thing.

 

[allrover75]

Smart and practical if you ask me. I have ran ULN systems off and on for years. It is a serious pain in the ***. Yes you may see rapid growth and good coloration but you may also find your tank a total nightmare to take care of. Recently I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get N03 at detectable levels. Not a good thing.

Thanks.... really good to get some good pragmatic input from you guys that have been there and done it.

 

[Aquaforest]

PO4 - 0,1 is not low.
What is your potassium level?
How long light is on?

 

[allrover75]

PO4 - 0,1 is not low.
What is your potassium level?
How long light is on?

Unknown, I don't test for potassium. I thought using the 1,2,3 parts meant I wouldn't need to monitor anything other than ca, mg, and alk from an element perspective.

Light is on for about 12 hours, same as on my previous tank. It is a new light though, my par meter is showing a reading of around 150 in the centre of the tank (half way down, in and across). What are you thinking?

Status as at today is no change. Bleaching still evident, does not appear any worse but no better either.

 

[Aquaforest]

It looks like new, not established tank - biology is not working correctly yet. Corals needs time to adapt to new system.
I suggest to dose Bio S all the time.