My Current QT Process

[Redfoxtang]

So what would happen If you moved fish from QT to DT if fish looked good after 14 days in therapeutic copper and eat well with no signs of parasites etc.

 

[Brew12]

So what would happen If you moved fish from QT to DT if fish looked good after 14 days in therapeutic copper and eat well with no signs of parasites etc.

The risk is introducing flukes, dangerous bacteria, or viruses. I have done this with anthias and a green mandarin before. I treated with General Cure while using copper to minimize total treatment time and minimize risks. For most fish I would prefer a transfer to a clean QT for additional observation to reduce risk.

 

[SteveC]

Thanks for all the input. Yes, just more questions!
I wonder how or who could do this as a research project? Do you think it could be done by us aquarists?

 

[nbd13]

Use this same process, just add metronidazole (Metroplex) to copper for the first 10 days. Dosing per instructions every 48 hours. This will cover the uronema component.

Quick question I don’t do any water changes in between dosages of metroplex correct? Didn’t see anything on the instructions for it.

Thanks

 

[HotRocks]

Quick question I don’t do any water changes in between dosages of metroplex correct? Didn’t see anything on the instructions for it.

Thanks

No WC's are needed between doses of Metro. It degrades pretty quickly so there shouldn't be an unnecessary build up of concentration. A weekly 25% WC wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[ramabama]

Agree, the 14 days provides some insurance/wiggle room.

Is it critical to transfer fish on the 15th day? Lets say you were following this system but you transferred fish on day 20 instead of day 15. Does this screw the process up? Sorry for my ignorance.....all this makes my head hurt.

 

[MnFish1]

Is it critical to transfer fish on the 15th day? Lets say you were following this system but you transferred fish on day 20 instead of day 15. Does this screw the process up? Sorry for my ignorance.....all this makes my head hurt.

I agree I'm confused as well. LOL. But I'm in a perpetual state of confusion. In some of the posts it mentions 'theronts are killed by copper' (which I think is correct) - in others it says tomites are killed by copper (are those the same as theronts?)..

I just want to repeat my understanding (please tell me if this is correct).
1. You take a fish - you put it in a tank and ramp up to therapeutic copper on day 0-2.
2. Within 3-7 days - all of the cryptokaryon trophonts on the fish will have fallen off (hopefully).
3. These trophonts are not killed by copper - they encyst within 12 hours after falling off the fish.
4. Within 3-14 days - the encysted CI will release free-swimming theronts (which ARE killed by copper) - thus they cannot be reinfective. Some cysts may still be there - at 14 days - and may last until 76 days.
5. On day 15 - you move the fish to another sterile tank (without copper) to minimize copper toxicity. The cysts in the 'old tank' can be killed with sterilization and used again.
6. Day 15-30 - you observe the fish for problems.

Is this it lOL?

 

[HotRocks]

Is it critical to transfer fish on the 15th day? Lets say you were following this system but you transferred fish on day 20 instead of day 15. Does this screw the process up? Sorry for my ignorance.....all this makes my head hurt.

Correct. Technically any day after 10 days of fully therapeutic copper works for the transfer. I always recommend 14 for a little additional protection

 

[HotRocks]

I agree I'm confused as well. LOL. But I'm in a perpetual state of confusion. In some of the posts it mentions 'theronts are killed by copper' (which I think is correct) - in others it says tomites are killed by copper (are those the same as theronts?)..

I just want to repeat my understanding (please tell me if this is correct).
1. You take a fish - you put it in a tank and ramp up to therapeutic copper on day 0-2.
2. Within 3-7 days - all of the cryptokaryon trophonts on the fish will have fallen off (hopefully).
3. These trophonts are not killed by copper - they encyst within 12 hours after falling off the fish.
4. Within 3-14 days - the encysted CI will release free-swimming theronts (which ARE killed by copper) - thus they cannot be reinfective. Some cysts may still be there - at 14 days - and may last until 76 days.
5. On day 15 - you move the fish to another sterile tank (without copper) to minimize copper toxicity. The cysts in the 'old tank' can be killed with sterilization and used again.
6. Day 15-30 - you observe the fish for problems.

Is this it lOL?

You got it.

Theronts, tomites, dinospores, all one in the same.

Copper/CP work the same. They shield the fish from being reinfected.

So technically in 7 days a fish should be free of all ich/velvet trophonts.

 

[Brew12]

In some of the posts it mentions 'theronts are killed by copper' (which I think is correct) - in others it says tomites are killed by copper (are those the same as theronts?)..

Tomites transition to Theronts when they hatch in the case of Cryptocaryon Irritans
Dinospores are the free swimmers for marine Amyloodinium Occelatum

 

[MnFish1]

Tomites transition to Theronts when they hatch in the case of Cryptocaryon Irritans
Dinospores are the free swimmers for marine Amyloodinium Occelatum

Yes - I was under the impression that tomites were growing inside the 'cysts' on the substrate - and when they were released ie freeswimming they are called theronts.

 

[Brew12]

Yes - I was under the impression that tomites were growing inside the 'cysts' on the substrate - and when they were released ie freeswimming they are called theronts.

Yup, correct impression. Where it can cause confusion is that some studies will say that copper will kill the Tomites. When the Tomonts break open the Tomites are exposed to copper. Some seem to argue that they haven't excysted yet to become the free swimming Theronts. Other studies refer to the Tomites as Theronts as soon as the Tomont breaks open. I know I have to re-read some sections over and over to make sure I understand the usage. It can trip me up when I read that tomites are not hurt by copper in some studies but that they are in others.

 

[OnceTwice]

Correct. Technically any day after 10 days of fully therapeutic copper works for the transfer. I always recommend 14 for a little additional protection

You got it.

Theronts, tomites, dinospores, all one in the same.

Copper/CP work the same. They shield the fish from being reinfected.

So technically in 7 days a fish should be free of all ich/velvet trophonts.

Sorry, which technically is correct? haha. If the fish is technically free in 7 days, is the 10 days also just additional protection like the 14 days? And what is this protection from? Thanks!

 

[HotRocks]

Sorry, which technically is correct? haha. If the fish is technically free in 7 days, is the 10 days also just additional protection like the 14 days? And what is this protection from? Thanks!

Personally, I would go no less than 10, no more than 14.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry, which technically is correct? haha. If the fish is technically free in 7 days, is the 10 days also just additional protection like the 14 days? And what is this protection from? Thanks!

Supposedly most of the CI attached to the fish are released within 3-7 days (they may start releasing the particles on Day 0 when put into QT and then encyst.. i.e. it goes into a 'dormant' stage where infectious particles are 'created'. Between 3 and 14 days after that - the infectious particles are released (and killed by copper quickly).

But here is my question for @HotRocks (I think I know the answer)

If lowering the copper dose is important - why not put the fish in the QT for 3 days without copper - and the start ramping up on Day 4 so that on day 6 the levels are therapeutic. Because between day's 0 and 6 the copper isn't doing anything. After Day 6 - you could wonder if some of the trophonts that fall off the fish have encysted and start to release theronts - so having copper would be helpful then.

Changing the protocol some means that you're using several days left of copper treatment - with the same results doesnt it?

BTW - My guess is that the reason the protocol is designed the way it is is because another parasite may also be present (i.e. velvet) which has a speedier life cycle. But either way - it seems like you could take off days 1 and 2 with the fish just in the QT without copper.

 

[nbd13]

No WC's are needed between doses of Metro. It degrades pretty quickly so there shouldn't be an unnecessary build up of concentration. A weekly 25% WC wouldn't be a bad idea.

Thanks.

Can someone check my math for the copper.

10 gallon total water volume.

To get the tank to 1.0 ppm I would need 5.92 ml?

Then to increase it by 0.25 per day I would need 1.48 divided by 2 doses per day at .74.

Thanks

Nick

 

[JPK]

Hi, @HotRocks @4FordFamily
Sorry if this has already been addressed,
I am going to start a QT set-up in my garage that follows your protocol. I have a long sturdy work bench in my garage that I plan on using for the tanks. I have two 40 gallon breeders and a 20 gallon Long, each with their own hang on back filter, heater, ammonia badge etc. Can I have all three tanks going at once side by side with out worrying about cross contamination. I was hoping to have a batch go into the copper tank, then 14 days later go into the clean QT for phase 2. I wanted to put a new batch in the copper once I moved the first batch out. The 20 long would be used if needed. Would this work or do they all need to be 10' apart?
Thanks,
Jason

 

[puffy127]

For sure the clean one needs to be 10 feet away.

 

[4FordFamily]

For sure the clean one needs to be 10 feet away.

Agree

 

[HotRocks]

Agree

Yup!