My Current QT Process

[Hallowhead]

LA usually ships in the 1.017-1.018 range, is that where you had your salinity?

I doubt the copper at 1.0ppm has anything to do with it. I just acclimated (float and release with matching salinity) 4 Wrasse last week directly into 1.75ppm and they are doing just fine.

All the fish in my main DT that were not QT had different salinities.

However, they were very close to bag salinity. What's the downfall to not matching salinity ?

 

[Hallowhead]

Wrasses in general tend to be sensitive to medications. 6-lines are one of the more hardy variety but I've never tried putting one directly in 1ppm copper.
It shouldn't have been an issue with the dottyback. They seem to respond to medications better than most fish.
Were they eating while in your QT?

I couldn't get the dotty to eat - tried mysis and pellets

 

[Kasey Grohowski]

All the fish in my main DT that were not QT had different salinities.

However, they were very close to bag salinity. What's the downfall to not matching salinity ?

Did you make sure to ask LA what salinity they would be coming in and match your QT to it? Anything more than .002 change in salinity can be stressful on the fish without proper acclimation (maybe even .001). Did you test the water from LA and your QT's to make sure?

 

[Brew12]

I doubt the copper at 1.0ppm has anything to do with it. I just acclimated (float and release with matching salinity) 4 Wrasse last week directly into 1.75ppm and they are doing just fine.

I've only treated a few wrasses in copper and never had an issue so that matches my experience. Might want to at least consider updating this sticky.

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart) The following chart is a quick reference guide on what QT protocol should be used according to which type of fish you are running through QT. It will give you an idea of which methods are generally safest with certain species but is not meant to be...

www.reef2reef.com

"** Wrasse in general should be allowed to settle and start eating for several days before copper treatment is started. While they can handle copper, it’s best to give them the time before hand for maximum chance of survival. If a wrasse has an injury or infection before going into QT, that “settling time” should be extended until the injury or infection has healed completely before starting copper. "

 

[JCTReefer]

@Hallowhead
Sorry for your troubles.
I’ve ordered plenty of fish from Liveaquaria/Quality Marine over the years. Matter of fact I was going to place an order a couple of weeks ago and the item was out of stock by the time I was ready to order. I emailed them and asked what their shipping parameters were. Despite their response, every shipment I’ve ever received has been much lower than what they say. It’s Always around 1.017-1.018.

Live Aquaria

Response By Email (Tammy K.) (08/05/2019 07:51 AM) Dear Jeff, Thank you for your email. When we package our specimen(s) the water is 1.021, this allows for any fluctuation during shipment. They are housed for their stay with our with aquarium stats of, temp 78, salinity 1.021 ph. 8.1-8.4depending on the time of day. Thank you for choosing LiveAquaria for your live aquatic needs. You are a valued customer and we look forward to hearing from you in the future. If we can be of any additional assistance, please feel free to contact our LiveAquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via email at [email protected]. We will be happy to answer any question(s) you may have. Sincerely, LiveAquaria All of that being said, I usually get my water close to the 1.018 range and have saltwater and Ro/di ready so if I need to adjust up or down I can to match shipping parameters in the Qt tank. A lot of times when livestock ships, ph drops and Co2 rises Nh3 “ammonia” is converted to Nh4”ammonium” which is far less toxic. If the animals shipping water ph is very low, I’ll drop the ph of the “ transition” water in a bucket to match it using 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of aquarium water to achieve an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units. So the temp, ph, salinity, is all the same. This gives the fish time to flush out entrained ammonia in the gills. The transition water is fresh saltwater adjusted to that of the bag. After about ten minutes or so in the bucket ill bring the ph up to that of the Qt. Remember Qt’s specific gravity is the same as shipping bag. Then when it matches fish goes straight in. I got lucky on my last shipment from another retailer. I did call before hand and ask them what they ship at. I trusted their word and adjusted the quarantine accordingly. The ph of this shipment was around 8.1 and salinity matched, so I was able to basically float to match temp and release. Drip acclimation is probably one of the worse things you can do to acclimate fish. Just by opening the bag the oxygen in the air is enough to raise ph and convert ammonium back to ammonia. I don’t why so many online retailers recommend this method. I’ve had shipments test a 5ppm total ammonia and Ph in the low 7’s.. So far as copper goes. The Hanna HR checker has been a great investment, especially coupled with copper power. There’s no guess work of trying to read a colorimetric chart. I did wait until all fish were eating for a couple of days before raising copper levels, instead of having it set at 1.0ppm off the get go. If I had seen signs of disease from the start, that would have been a different story. Ramped the levels to 2.0ppm over 2days. No issues. Yellow tang and Royal Gramma. Both eating like pigs. What did you use to seed your media with? I’m just curious. Do you have a powerhead in there to provide plenty of surface agitation to promote gas exchange? I use a MJ 1200 pointed towards the water surface. My Qt is a 20 gallon long. I think maybe a lot of times people lose fish by overdosing meds. Not saying that’s what happened. But so far as copper, if you buy a Hanna that shouldn’t be an issue. If you happen to purchase a meter make sure and buy extra reagent packets. They’re cheap. BRS usually has a good supply of both meters and reagents. You didn’t add anything like prime to the tank when you were using copper did you? I guess if your ammonia was reading zero you wouldn’t have. Any chemicals sprayed around the tank? Did you say you have lights for the tank?

 

[Hallowhead]

I've only treated a few wrasses in copper and never had an issue so that matches my experience. Might want to at least consider updating this sticky.

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart) The following chart is a quick reference guide on what QT protocol should be used according to which type of fish you are running through QT. It will give you an idea of which methods are generally safest with certain species but is not meant to be...

www.reef2reef.com

"** Wrasse in general should be allowed to settle and start eating for several days before copper treatment is started. While they can handle copper, it’s best to give them the time before hand for maximum chance of survival. If a wrasse has an injury or infection before going into QT, that “settling time” should be extended until the injury or infection has healed completely before starting copper. "

do you think it's safe to do this for all fish? Wait a day or two until you see them eating? Than begin introducing medicated food & copper?

 

[Kasey Grohowski]

@Hallowhead
Sorry for your troubles.
I’ve ordered plenty of fish from Liveaquaria/Quality Marine over the years. Matter of fact I was going to place an order a couple of weeks ago and the item was out of stock by the time I was ready to order. I emailed them and asked what their shipping parameters were. Despite their response, every shipment I’ve ever received has been much lower than what they say. It’s Always around 1.017-1.018.

Live Aquaria

Response By Email (Tammy K.) (08/05/2019 07:51 AM) Dear Jeff, Thank you for your email. When we package our specimen(s) the water is 1.021, this allows for any fluctuation during shipment. They are housed for their stay with our with aquarium stats of, temp 78, salinity 1.021 ph. 8.1-8.4depending on the time of day. Thank you for choosing LiveAquaria for your live aquatic needs. You are a valued customer and we look forward to hearing from you in the future. If we can be of any additional assistance, please feel free to contact our LiveAquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via email at [email protected]. We will be happy to answer any question(s) you may have. Sincerely, LiveAquaria All of that being said, I usually get my water close to the 1.018 range and have saltwater and Ro/di ready so if I need to adjust up or down I can to match shipping parameters in the Qt tank. A lot of times when livestock ships, ph drops and Co2 rises Nh3 “ammonia” is converted to Nh4”ammonium” which is far less toxic. If the animals shipping water ph is very low, I’ll drop the ph of the “ transition” water in a bucket to match it using 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of aquarium water to achieve an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units. So the temp, ph, salinity, is all the same. This gives the fish time to flush out entrained ammonia in the gills. The transition water is fresh saltwater adjusted to that of the bag. After about ten minutes or so in the bucket ill bring the ph up to that of the Qt. Remember Qt’s specific gravity is the same as shipping bag. Then when it matches fish goes straight in. I got lucky on my last shipment from another retailer. I did call before hand and ask them what they ship at. I trusted their word and adjusted the quarantine accordingly. The ph of this shipment was around 8.1 and salinity matched, so I was able to basically float to match temp and release. Drip acclimation is probably one of the worse things you can do to acclimate fish. Just by opening the bag the oxygen in the air enough to raise ph and convert ammonium back to ammonia. I don’t why so many online retailers recommend this method. I’ve had shipments test a 5ppm total ammonia and Ph in the low 7’s.. So far as copper goes. The Hanna HR checker has been a great investment, especially coupled with copper power. There’s no guess work of trying to read a colorimetric chart. I did wait until all fish were eating for a couple of days before raising copper levels, instead of having it set at 1.0ppm off the get go. If I had seen signs of disease from the start, that would have been a different story. Ramped the levels to 2.0ppm over 2days. No issues. Yellow tang and Royal Gramma. Both eating like pigs. What did you use to seed your media with? I’m just curious. Do you have a powerhead in there to provide plenty of surface agitation to promotes gas exchange? I use a MJ 1200 pointed towards the water surface. My Qt is a 20 gallon long. I think maybe a lot of times people lose fish by overdosing meds. Not saying that’s what happened. But so far as copper, having the Hanna that shouldn’t be an issue. If you happen to purchase a meter make sure and buy extra reagent packets. They’re cheap. BRS usually has a good supply of both meters and reagents. You didn’t add anything like prime to the tank when you were using copper did you? I guess if your ammonia was reading zero you wouldn’t have. Any chemicals sprayed around the tank? Did you say you have lights for the tank?

Just curious what do lights have to do with this?

 

[Hallowhead]

@Hallowhead
Sorry for your troubles.
I’ve ordered plenty of fish from Liveaquaria/Quality Marine over the years. Matter of fact I was going to place an order a couple of weeks ago and the item was out of stock by the time I was ready to order. I emailed them and asked what their shipping parameters were. Despite their response, every shipment I’ve ever received has been much lower than what they say. It’s Always around 1.017-1.018.

Live Aquaria

Response By Email (Tammy K.) (08/05/2019 07:51 AM) Dear Jeff, Thank you for your email. When we package our specimen(s) the water is 1.021, this allows for any fluctuation during shipment. They are housed for their stay with our with aquarium stats of, temp 78, salinity 1.021 ph. 8.1-8.4depending on the time of day. Thank you for choosing LiveAquaria for your live aquatic needs. You are a valued customer and we look forward to hearing from you in the future. If we can be of any additional assistance, please feel free to contact our LiveAquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via email at [email protected]. We will be happy to answer any question(s) you may have. Sincerely, LiveAquaria All of that being said, I usually get my water close to the 1.018 range and have saltwater and Ro/di ready so if I need to adjust up or down I can to match shipping parameters in the Qt tank. A lot of times when livestock ships, ph drops and Co2 rises Nh3 “ammonia” is converted to Nh4”ammonium” which is far less toxic. If the animals shipping water ph is very low, I’ll drop the ph of the “ transition” water in a bucket to match it using 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of aquarium water to achieve an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units. So the temp, ph, salinity, is all the same. This gives the fish time to flush out entrained ammonia in the gills. The transition water is fresh saltwater adjusted to that of the bag. After about ten minutes or so in the bucket ill bring the ph up to that of the Qt. Remember Qt’s specific gravity is the same as shipping bag. Then when it matches fish goes straight in. I got lucky on my last shipment from another retailer. I did call before hand and ask them what they ship at. I trusted their word and adjusted the quarantine accordingly. The ph of this shipment was around 8.1 and salinity matched, so I was able to basically float to match temp and release. Drip acclimation is probably one of the worse things you can do to acclimate fish. Just by opening the bag the oxygen in the air enough to raise ph and convert ammonium back to ammonia. I don’t why so many online retailers recommend this method. I’ve had shipments test a 5ppm total ammonia and Ph in the low 7’s.. So far as copper goes. The Hanna HR checker has been a great investment, especially coupled with copper power. There’s no guess work of trying to read a colorimetric chart. I did wait until all fish were eating for a couple of days before raising copper levels, instead of having it set at 1.0ppm off the get go. If I had seen signs of disease from the start, that would have been a different story. Ramped the levels to 2.0ppm over 2days. No issues. Yellow tang and Royal Gramma. Both eating like pigs. What did you use to seed your media with? I’m just curious. Do you have a powerhead in there to provide plenty of surface agitation to promotes gas exchange? I use a MJ 1200 pointed towards the water surface. My Qt is a 20 gallon long. I think maybe a lot of times people lose fish by overdosing meds. Not saying that’s what happened. But so far as copper, having the Hanna that shouldn’t be an issue. If you happen to purchase a meter make sure and buy extra reagent packets. They’re cheap. BRS usually has a good supply of both meters and reagents. You didn’t add anything like prime to the tank when you were using copper did you? I guess if your ammonia was reading zero you wouldn’t have. Any chemicals sprayed around the tank? Did you say you have lights for the tank?

I have to be doing something wrong but I feel like such an ****** losing fish and knowing they're suffering.

I had the salt water ~ 1.025 which was what I read was good for new fish coming into a QT. Regardless of the bag salinity the fish didn't die right away being that the wrasse died on day three wouldn't it have gotten used to a difference in salinity?

I think this next batch of fish I will try to start copper power at zero and wait until they're eating healthy than raise the copper daily. I followed the equation above and was dosing ~.88ml of copper power to achieve a ppm of 2.0 from 1.0. I use the API copper test.

I use a aquaclear 10 gallon hob which adds a LOT of surface agitation.

The tank is right next to a 34 gallon frag tank which isn't cycled yet so I have been using the light on that for 12 hours a day. Maybe it was too much light? idk. Are they okay in darkness all day?

For my next round I am moving the QT tank.

 

[JCTReefer]

I have to be doing something wrong but I feel like such an ****** losing fish and knowing they're suffering.

I had the salt water ~ 1.025 which was what I read was good for new fish coming into a QT. Regardless of the bag salinity the fish didn't die right away being that the wrasse died on day three wouldn't it have gotten used to a difference in salinity?

I think this next batch of fish I will try to start copper power at zero and wait until they're eating healthy than raise the copper daily. I followed the equation above and was dosing ~.88ml of copper power to achieve a ppm of 2.0 from 1.0. I use the API copper test.

I use a aquaclear 10 gallon hob which adds a LOT of surface agitation.

The tank is right next to a 34 gallon frag tank which isn't cycled yet so I have been using the light on that for 12 hours a day. Maybe it was too much light? idk. Are they okay in darkness all day?

For my next round I am moving the QT tank.

So far as light, I usually have the lights off the first day to let them get settled. After that, lights come on so I can do a close visual inspection. I’ve never kept a fish in complete darkness. There always been ambient light coming in from the room. Even with blinds closed. So I can’t speak about that. I don’t think the light from the frag tank killed your fish. I know having your Qt in a high traffic area can stress livestock if people are constantly walking by. I would make sure the next round of fish are eating well before treating. Unless there’s obvious signs of disease of course. However, if they come in with something like velvet it would better to treat asap. Kind of a catch22. I took a gamble with my current batch of fish and made sure they were eating for 3 days before I started ramping up copper. Every time you order something site unseen it’s always a gamble. I’ve certainly has some DOA’s. Liveaquaria will stand by their 14 day guarantee though.

 

[Hallowhead]

So far as light, I usually have the lights off the first day to let them get settled. After that, lights come on so I can do a close visual inspection. I’ve never kept a fish in complete darkness. There always been ambient light coming in from the room. Even with blinds closed. So I can’t speak about that. I don’t think the light from the frag tank killed your fish. I know having your Qt in a high traffic area can stress livestock if people are constantly walking by. I would make sure the next round of fish are eating well before treating. Unless there’s obvious signs of disease of course. However, if they come in with something like velvet it would better to treat asap. Kind of a catch22. I took a gamble with my current batch of fish and made sure they were eating for 3 days before I started ramping up copper. Every time you order something site unseen it’s always a gamble. I’ve certainly has some DOA’s. Liveaquaria will stand by their 14 day guarantee though.

What type of salinity fluctuation can they endure ? Maybe it was too long for me to top off?

 

[Brew12]

do you think it's safe to do this for all fish? Wait a day or two until you see them eating? Than begin introducing medicated food & copper?

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a right answer. Some fish may benefit from immediate treatment where others may benefit from waiting for a few days. The problem is that if you guess wrong your fish aren't likely to make it. I wish I could give you a better answer. If the dottyback wasn't eating there wasn't much you can do. While I'm sure it's possible copper suppressed its appetite I've never experienced it. There is no telling why it wasn't eating.

I had the salt water ~ 1.025 which was what I read was good for new fish coming into a QT. Regardless of the bag salinity the fish didn't die right away being that the wrasse died on day three wouldn't it have gotten used to a difference in salinity?

I got a batch from LA around 2 weeks ago and it came in at 1.016. Osmotic shock doesn't cause immediate death and some fish have no issues making the jump. I see it as one more stresser that is easy to avoid. If the fish is dealing with the stress of shipping and possible parasites and/or medication, the additional stress of a rapid salinity change is something to avoid imo.

 

[Hallowhead]

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a right answer. Some fish may benefit from immediate treatment where others may benefit from waiting for a few days. The problem is that if you guess wrong your fish aren't likely to make it. I wish I could give you a better answer. If the dottyback wasn't eating there wasn't much you can do. While I'm sure it's possible copper suppressed its appetite I've never experienced it. There is no telling why it wasn't eating.

I got a batch from LA around 2 weeks ago and it came in at 1.016. Osmotic shock doesn't cause immediate death and some fish have no issues making the jump. I see it as one more stresser that is easy to avoid. If the fish is dealing with the stress of shipping and possible parasites and/or medication, the additional stress of a rapid salinity change is something to avoid imo.

I'm starting to think it died from not consistent salinity - changing from bag to tank than swinnd through the day while I'm at work and not being there to top it off going one day

 

[Qasimja]

i got 10g setup i plan to use for a QT tank could i use these to seed my qt? like put this bag in the sump of my dt for a few weeks to seed it with bacteria then put it in my qt along with some pvc elbows for the fish to hide? i plan to treat any fish i qt with prazipro

 

[Qasimja]

hm my link didnt work its Aquaclear Biomax

 

[HotRocks]

hm my link didnt work its Aquaclear Biomax

Yes ceramic media is fine to use. I would recommend adding some bottled bacteria even with the "seeded media" from the DT.

 

[Hallowhead]

Here was my dotty Ariel. Does anyone see anything abnormal? Stomach appears missing

 

[JCTReefer]

What type of salinity fluctuation can they endure ? Maybe it was too long for me to top off?

I’d shoot for no more than .001 a day on fluctuation. Ideally you’d have an auto topoff. I don’t. At least not on my Qt. I top off once a day. On a 20 long it’s 17 gallons to the bottom of the top trim. When I see it drop below that I top it off. Livestock can usually handle a drop in salinity fairly well. It’s the other way thats a bigger stressor. If it’s an open top with lots of surface movement you could be fluctuating more than this. I’m not sure. Roughly 2/3rds of mine is sealed and the other 1/3 has eggcrate with netting for gas exchange. Last time I quarantined half was sealed and half was eggcrate. It made a huge difference evaporation wise.

 

[Hallowhead]

I’d shoot for no more than .001 a day on fluctuation. Ideally you’d have an auto topoff. I don’t. At least not on my Qt. I top off once a day. On a 20 long it’s 17 gallons to the bottom of the top trim. When I see it drop below that I top it off. Livestock can usually handle a drop in salinity fairly well. It’s the other way thats a bigger stressor. If it’s an open top with lots of surface movement you could be fluctuation more than this. I’m not sure. Roughly 2/3rds of mine is sealed and the other 1/3 has eggcrate with netting for gas exchange. Last time I quarantined half was sealed and half was eggcrate. It made a huge difference evaporation wise.

so if I know I am going to be away for a day I should over top it off? Having the salnity drop below the proper level?

 

[HotRocks]

so if I know I am going to be away for a day I should over top it off? Having the salnity drop below the proper level?

Salinity fluctuation within the tank due to evaporation isn't as big of a deal for a fish QT. It happens very slowly.

The issue is taking them out of a bag at 1.017 and dunking them in 1.025. That is a large jump and can cause osmotic shock.

 

[HotRocks]

Here was my dotty Ariel. Does anyone see anything abnormal? Stomach appears missing

Probably something picking at the fish post mortem if I had to guess.

If it's belly is that pinched it probably hadn't been eating for a couple weeks prior to death.