My Cyano has returned...

[Dom]

I would be interested in if you have done an N-DOC test .

How is this done?

 

[Dom]

Return pumps are just merely for the sump and shouldn't be equated into display turn over.

I would suggest a pair of powerheads to get at least 50x turnover and it would help with the oxygen depletion if you use chemiclean.

I also have a pair of AquaClear 70s at the back. They are rated up to 70 GPH. Times 2 (as I have a pair).

I define turnover as the number of times total volume passes through the sump and filters combined. I'm not sure how you not count the turnover via the return pump?

 

[Dom]

The sand rinse thread has more cyano cures than any thread on the web. Why would you consider options that don't come from 98% documented cures with before and after pics for fifty months straight

Because I did not know this thread existed. A link would be helpful.

 

[Dom]

Also: I've placed my skimmer on a timer, running it only 8 hours per day to get the nitrates up. 12am-4am and then again 12pm-4pm.

I'll test NO3 and see where it is at after a few days, then change the run times to tweak my NO3 level.

 

[sde1500]

I also have a pair of AquaClear 70s at the back. They are rated up to 70 GPH. Times 2 (as I have a pair).

I define turnover as the number of times total volume passes through the sump and filters combined. I'm not sure how you not count the turnover via the return pump?

I would say you still need more, are you running that return full bore? Because that is a lot of sump turn over, way excessive actually. But even including that and those two HOB, it isn't a ton of tank turnover.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

How is this done?

https://aquarium.bulkreefsupply.com/reefing/N--Doc

You can see on my test below I have way to much Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (TNb) in my system. There is no way to test for it other than the Triton test right now. I admit it's kind'a spendy. Basically, even though you don't have much testable NO3 you may have a huge amount of other pollution in your tank that has yet to decompose fully. In theory, by decreasing your feedings and increasing your NO3 and PO4 your cyano should go away. It's surviving by utilizing the organic nutrients and outcompeting the "good bacteria". I was able to beat Dinos using this strategy. Full disclosure: I still struggle to fully eliminate cyano but it is definitely less pronounced in my tank. I have a feeling that when my coral colonies become more mature I will have less problems with cyano because they also compete for organic nutrients.

 

[Brew12]

https://aquarium.bulkreefsupply.com/reefing/N--Doc

You can see on my test below I have way to much Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (TNb) in my system. There is no way to test for it other than the Triton test right now. I admit it's kind'a spendy. Basically, even though you don't have much testable NO3 you may have a huge amount of other pollution in your tank that has yet to decompose fully. In theory, by decreasing your feedings and increasing your NO3 and PO4 your cyano should go away. It's surviving by utilizing the organic nutrients and outcompeting the "good bacteria". I was able to beat Dinos using this strategy. Full disclosure: I still struggle to fully eliminate cyano but it is definitely less pronounced in my tank. I have a feeling that when my coral colonies become more mature I will have less problems with cyano because they also compete for organic nutrients.

Do they give you corrective actions with this test?

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Do they give you corrective actions with this test?

Yes, some of it is automated. If that doesn't answer your questions then you can send them an email and get more personalized support.

 

[Brew12]

Yes, some of it is automated. If that doesn't answer your questions then you can send them an email and get more personalized support.

Did they offer any advice to you other than water changes? I'm a big fan of the ICP testing, trying to figure out the value of their new nutrient testing.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Did they offer any advice to you other than water changes? I'm a big fan of the ICP testing, trying to figure out the value of their new nutrient testing.

Yes but I think Triton is still gathering data. The N-DOC results are a little more complicated when used to diagnose the problem. I know for a fact that my tank exports NO3 and PO4 super efficiently. I can pour food in and still not see a rise in those parameters. That's what got me in trouble with Dinos and Cyano. My tank is weak at converting fish poop into NO3 and PO4 so Dinos and Cyano take over when I overfeed. At least that is my theory so far and the N-DOC results do show high organic Nitrogen and moderate organic Carbon in my tank which supports it.

I want to see if other people who suffer from Dinos and Cyano have the same type of N-DOC results.

 

[brandon429]

I thought we’d chatted there before it’s too many pages to recall

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

That’s good for examples and if it saves a big read this is the summary

Any form of chemical alteration and light alteration and grazer alteration can stop or reverse cyano growth, but they’re variable means which is why only the sand rinsing, total tank approach is as reliable above. Some of those tanks are worth a lot of money, we clean those sandbeds so clear you can grab and drop handfuls of the stuff in a running tank and nothing will cloud, ever.

By reducing the detritus stored up, organics to zero in the bed, the cyano abates in almost every case. It’s not that one way is better than another it’s that when a tank is accessible, can be drained into a brute container, that means all the surfaces can be accessed for cleaning like we show. Fell swoop entire tank at once lose no coral surgery vs months long testing and coral param alterations which we don’t even factor. Not one nutrient reading or ID in the thread, but after pics. And follow up posts ranging out to 18 mos post treatment.

Big tanks can’t do this, so nutrient balancing is needed science so they don’t have to endure cleaning due to being too big

I could part clean your system in two hours and refill it off the same original drained and caught water within two hours, don’t even have to make up new water if you don’t want. We’d siphon decant it off the top to hold it before we s storm the bottom layers until they pass a drop test.


Three reasons why the life forms in your sandbed don’t matter: they reseed back off live rock anyway after rinsing, rinsing isn’t antimicrobial or nobody would need antibiotics, and lastly how much are the currently helping

We show chemical free tank surgery wins at an incredibly high ratio, we want dinoflagellate entrants into the thread as ID doesn’t matter. We think tank surgery cures any noncompliants

 

[sghera64]

. . . I know for a fact that my tank exports NO3 and PO4 super efficiently. I can pour food in and still not see a rise in those parameters. That's what got me in trouble with Dinos and Cyano. My tank is weak at converting fish poop into NO3 and PO4 so Dinos and Cyano take over when I overfeed.

My understanding is that if you have a lot of Cyanobacteria, it is not unusual to bottom out with Nitrate and stay there. Cyanobacteria are nitrogen fixers. They will even pull dissolved N2 from the water.

I had the same mysterious phenomenon of not able to increase Nitrate, and I was dumping a lot of calcium Nitrate into my system every day. Once I killed off all my Cyanobacteria, my Nitrate spiked. It took a 9 weeks to come down and stabilize around 2-3ppm (Red Sea Pro kit)

 

[GWHouston]

I got a CUC from aquarium depot .com last week. I believe it was $70 and had 100 pieces of snails, crabs, etc. So far they're making a big difference in my algae growth. As for the cyano, it took me two rounds of chemiclean 10-14 days apart. Once I was done with the second round, my O2 responded quickly especially with a fan of outdoor air circulated at the tank. On a side note, I invested in a CO2 scrubber to aid my O2 and pH levels. Works like a charm.

I also stir up my bed and rocks with a power head pump per @Brew12 suggestion. It helps remove excess algae patches as well as the red cyano.

 

[scattered]

Cyano is part of the game once everything is balanced you'll beat it just be patient and keep up on your maintenance and water changes.

This. Stop using chemicals and fix the root cause.

 

[simpleman]

i used CHEMICLEAN as directed worked great but you must get to the route cause in my case over feeding but watch when you turn your skimmer on it will overflow very fast i have a floor drain in my cabinet that i ran with 1/2 pvc to outside i put a hose from frome my skimmer cup and let it run till it stabileze then clean cup and replace plug

 

[simpleman]

oh ya i could not use skimmer without cup to aerate to much bubbles in sump/tank but i did use 2 4 inch air stones in sump

 

[Dom]

Sorry you are still having problems!

What CuC members do you have that will stir up and/or clean your sandbed for you?

Ok... this is where I should get blasted... and rightfully so...

I don't have a CUC. The last member of my CUC (emerald crab) died a few months ago, and I never replaced them. I do have a few snails, but not nearly enough to do the work a CUC does.

I am sorry that I managed to eradicate bristle worms from my tank. They were great for churning sand.

Can anyone provide a link to a CUC package that they recommend?

 

[Dom]

I am amazed at the swift a downturn my tank has taken. I would describe my Cyano infection as moderate - severe.

My protein skimmer is completely off and my nitrates have begun to climb (1.5ppm up from zero), but not nearly as much and as quickly. Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but with added flow and nitrates pushing up, I feel that Cyano has not returned in some areas where I've churned the sand and has become lighter in other areas. I'll know more today when my lights come on around noon.

 

[Brew12]

Ok... this is where I should get blasted... and rightfully so...

I don't have a CUC. The last member of my CUC (emerald crab) died a few months ago, and I never replaced them. I do have a few snails, but not nearly enough to do the work a CUC does.

I am sorry that I managed to eradicate bristle worms from my tank. They were great for churning sand.

Can anyone provide a link to a CUC package that they recommend?

I get my CuC from John at Reefcleaners.org but you can do a build your own through many common sites that sell fish.
I like to get a snails only package and then add blue legged dwarf hermits. Some hermits can cause issues so I don't want a random group.

I actually just placed an order from him that is shipping today with 90 snails, 20 hermits and a few other things. I figure I'm down to around 100-140 snails so it was time to for a refresh order.

 

[Dom]

I get my CuC from John at Reefcleaners.org but you can do a build your own through many common sites that sell fish.
I like to get a snails only package and then add blue legged dwarf hermits. Some hermits can cause issues so I don't want a random group.

I actually just placed an order from him that is shipping today with 90 snails, 20 hermits and a few other things. I figure I'm down to around 100-140 snails so it was time to for a refresh order.

I'm dealing with a 33 long, so I think if I ordered that many, my tank would look infested.

I like to get crabs and snails from the shoreline down by my house. I usually keep them stocked up in a 10 gallon and replenish as needed. It's a cheap way to keep a CUC and quarantine them before adding them to the display. Unfortunately, coming out of the winter months, my supply has dwindled down to almost nothing.

My strategy moving forward...

I am thinking this may be a blessing is disguise. With the changes I have made, I am hoping to see an improvement in the next few days. If not, I plan to do a manual cleaning which will allow me to make some plumbing changes to my overflows. Here is the plan:

1. I have a 20 long that I will leave bare bottom and drop a Danner Mag 5 return pump in for flow and add water.
   
2. I will place all of my corals, fish and Nem in the 20 long with proper heating and lighting.
3. I will remove all remaining water and place it in to a 20 Gallon Brute for later use.
4. I will remove all sand for a thorough rinsing.
5. I will then make my plumbing changes: raise my overflows and lower my return outlet so it isn't so close to the surface.
6. I will return the sand and water, and power up the tank so that heating, lighting and flow are restored.
7. I will return all fish, coral and Nems to the tank.

Thoughts?

Dom