My first solid LED experience after MH with SPS

[jda]

Why do people say dumb stuff like "if you cannot grow corals" or "they grow just fine?" This is a sucker's argument. Of course they grow corals. If you cannot grow corals under the old flourescent lights than came with your tank then you are doing something wrong... or Marineland lights sold at PetCo... or some old CFLs that you got at a garage sale for free. Some want to do more than grow corals or do just fine. Why is it not possible to have a discussion about the nuance, the differences and all of that? Some of us do not care about SPS, but about acropora. I don't use LEDs under my acropora* since I want better than any LED has to offer, but I have very intelligent discussions with some that do and they will flat out tell you that while you can indeed grow corals under Radions, they are not as good as other kinds of lights and not even close. I totally understand that not everybody is talented enough nor care enough to get the best of out their corals, but I wish that they could at least understand that some can.

I am not usually one for false equivalencies, but somebody had a good one where they compared growing coral just fine under LED vs better lights to those who do not think that where you go to college matters. To many, it probably does not matter, but if you have aspirations of certian things, then where you go to college certainly matters A LOT. Kinda like reef tank lighting, you cannot explain this to those who do not get it.

I still am waiting for anybody to show me a coral catalog and results under Radions, AI or Neptune that therman and Adam get under their Photons. Anybody? I guess that they don't just want to grow corals and want to actually have a wider catalog where they can make money and stuff. I guess that their clients want more than monti caps, birdsnest and corals that the local club members give away for free.

*I do have a few Gen 4 xr30s. They are fine lights and I can see why some folks love them. This is likely because they have not see what other lights can do. They suck next to a 14k Phoenix for growth and color... in the same frag tanks. Yes, you can grow corals with them and nobody said that you could not... but you can do better with other lights.

 

[DJF]

I tried a bunch of leds attempting to get away from a hybrid t5 setup; ATI Stratons were the ones that convinced me.

 

[KandAReefs]

Why do people say dumb stuff like "if you cannot grow corals" or "they grow just fine?" This is a sucker's argument. Of course they grow corals. If you cannot grow corals under the old flourescent lights than came with your tank then you are doing something wrong... or Marineland lights sold at PetCo... or some old CFLs that you got at a garage sale for free. Some want to do more than grow corals or do just fine. Why is it not possible to have a discussion about the nuance, the differences and all of that? Some of us do not care about SPS, but about acropora. I don't use LEDs under my acropora* since I want better than any LED has to offer, but I have very intelligent discussions with some that do and they will flat out tell you that while you can indeed grow corals under Radions, they are not as good as other kinds of lights and not even close. I totally understand that not everybody is talented enough nor care enough to get the best of out their corals, but I wish that they could at least understand that some can.

I am not usually one for false equivalencies, but somebody had a good one where they compared growing coral just fine under LED vs better lights to those who do not think that where you go to college matters. To many, it probably does not matter, but if you have aspirations of certian things, then where you go to college certainly matters A LOT. Kinda like reef tank lighting, you cannot explain this to those who do not get it.

I still am waiting for anybody to show me a coral catalog and results under Radions, AI or Neptune that therman and Adam get under their Photons. Anybody? I guess that they don't just want to grow corals and want to actually have a wider catalog where they can make money and stuff. I guess that their clients want more than monti caps, birdsnest and corals that the local club members give away for free.

*I do have a few Gen 4 xr30s. They are fine lights and I can see why some folks love them. This is likely because they have not see what other lights can do. They suck next to a 14k Phoenix for growth and color... in the same frag tanks. Yes, you can grow corals with them and nobody said that you could not... but you can do better with other lights.

To think anyone cares where you or if you went to college lol. Get the followers / subscribers count up. That's what really matters my friend.

 

[ArachnoJoozt]

3 G6 XR15's / 2 kessil 360x's / banked by 2 ATI T5 blue +'s.
The reef runs only down the middle of the tank since it's peninsula.
And it's a shallow 20" deep. I have more than enough light. But if since someone mentioned Reefbum and another guy have big colonies and fast growth I'm assuming mine are not dialed in optimally ATM

Have you measured the par with this setup?
I would not be surprised if it's much lower than you expect, especially with the t5's off.

 

[buruskeee]

I still am waiting for anybody to show me a coral catalog and results under Radions, AI or Neptune that therman and Adam get under their Photons. Anybody? I guess that they don't just want to grow corals and want to actually have a wider catalog where they can make money and stuff. I guess that their clients want more than monti caps, birdsnest and corals that the local club members give away for free.

You mean like this? An old school reefer that was only MH/VHO/T5 that went full LED and still got the same results? There’s many folks like this, but as said above, many frag and sell early that have success now a days and so you never see blown out tanks. Acros are at 700PAR at the top. 1” frags to table colonies in 18 months. Methods are wildly different these day, and he still uses old school methods for blowing out tanks.

 

[jda]

Are you sure that you meant to reply to me? Are you posting tanks that grow corals under LED - we know that they and do this. Rob use Orphek Atlantik v4 not the Radions, AI or Neptune lights that I posted about that you quoted. Are you making my point for me? That video is for 3+ years ago. I was a bit saddened when the tank needed a reboot.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Now, I do agree with the fact that there’s something just special with halides but I think we can achieve close to the same results with LEDs. I believe the main issue has always been coverage. People tend not to run enough fixtures, simple as.

I was very hesitant to use an all LED setup for the longest time but I finally found one with the coverage I wanted as well as the ability to provide high intensity light…like the gold standard of halides+T5’s.
Now, do I think I’m getting the same results as I would with huge reflectors and a bank of T5’s like I used back in the day? Probably not…but dang near close and, for me, the benefits outweighs the cons.
Btw…LEDs are dang hard to get realistic photographs under lol

 

[buruskeee]

Are you sure that you meant to reply to me? Are you posting tanks that grow corals under LED - we know that they and do this. Rob use Orphek Atlantik v4 not the Radions, AI or Neptune lights that I posted about that you quoted. Are you making my point for me? That video is for 3+ years ago. I was a bit saddened when the tank needed a reboot.

So now the goalposts change to “not those LEDs, these LEDs” . There’s plenty out there. Reefdude uses all XR30. Melevs uses all Neptune. There’s not much difference from one LED fixture to another (out of the box spectrum only) - so I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue anymore.

Lights grow coral period. Why is that such a hard statement to accept? MH T5 LED … it’s all personal preference and there’s zero data to support one grows better than the other when ALL variables are equal to spectrum and light output.

 

[buruskeee]

Now, I do agree with the fact that there’s something just special with halides but I think we can achieve close to the same results with LEDs. I believe the main issue has always been coverage. People tend not to run enough fixtures, simple as.

I was very hesitant to use an all LED setup for the longest time but I finally found one with the coverage I wanted as well as the ability to provide high intensity light…like the gold standard of halides+T5’s.
Now, do I think I’m getting the same results as I would with huge reflectors and a bank of T5’s like I used back in the day? Probably not…but dang near close and, for me, the benefits outweighs the cons.
Btw…LEDs are dang hard to get realistic photographs under lol

That aquascape is awesome! What fixtures are you using? And yes, coverage is the only thing that can be compared if it’s PAR for PAR and same spectrum. Blades are now providing the same even coverage as T5s without the muted look (some prefer it though).

 

[Oldreefer44]

Still waiting for a definition of "best". Is it faster or slower, thicker or thinner, more colorful or highlighting specific colors? What about the aesthetics of the fixture itself and how it fits into the overall picture you are trying to paint? In my close to 50 years in the hobby, and having used all of the above, to me it still goes back to personal preference and the plusses and minuses that each type of light carries with it. IME, just like plants, some corals will like your lighting choices and grow like weeds and others not so much. Some of the corals I have had for a couple of decades grew very fast under halides while others did not yet once I changed to LED's the opposite happened. So hard for me to choose a "best" unless a lot of nuance is included

 

[Viking_Reefing]

That aquascape is awesome! What fixtures are you using? And yes, coverage is the only thing that can be compared if it’s PAR for PAR and same spectrum. Blades are now providing the same even coverage as T5s without the muted look (some prefer it though).

Thanks man, glad to hear it! It’s a giesemann aurora V12 1500 with an extra focus puck added to it.

There are some other differences in the light given out by halides as well. One major component is true uv light that very few LED fixtures produce and the ones that do hardly provides any. If that’s good or bad is up for debate…I’m not smart enough to figure that one out

 

[jda]

The nuance is what matters. I would like to be able to have conversations with those who can tell without those who cannot tell or do not care chiming in that they all can do the simple, basic function of growing coral. Do you all not know or see that without this, the LEDs would still all be blue and white and burning the heck out of coral. For Radions to get better, it might be OK for those to actually look and see why the folks who grow the best stuff use them, right? Instead of getting defensive, why not ask a few questions?

The OP did not ask if his LEDs could grow coral. They know this. They asked about some of the nuance... of which it exists and matters.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

I still am waiting for anybody to show me a coral catalog and results under Radions, AI or Neptune that therman and Adam get under their Photons. Anybody? I guess that they don't just want to grow corals and want to actually have a wider catalog where they can make money and stuff. I guess that their clients want more than monti caps, birdsnest and corals that the local club members give away for free.

LOL, cough cough... I'll put my collection up against anyone's. I'll put a list together if you like, but I literally have over 200 different SPS in this tank alone, and the rest of the farm has quite a few more that are not in this tank. Grown under Radions as the primary lights with some T5 supplement.

 

[jda]

Awesome. Nobody was talking about hybrid lighting here. Again, nuance matters. I have mentioned your tanks when people ask about adding in T5s. T5s make a difference, no doubt.

If you wish to add, why the T5s? What shortcoming do they help with?

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

Awesome. Nobody was talking about hybrid lighting here. Again, nuance matters. I have mentioned your tanks when people ask about adding in T5s. T5s make a difference, no doubt.

If you wish to add, why the T5s? What shortcoming do they help with?

Gotcha. Honestly, it's the color. My lighting rig covers the entire surface of the tank so shading isn't an issue even when I only run the Radions. I'm very particular about the appearance to my eyes (secondary to the health of the corals of course). I do not like the windex look of blue's only. I run ATI B+ and ATI Aquablue Specials for the T-5's, and the combination of those bulbs with the Radions on AB+ gives me the look that I like and my growth is phenomenal. Honestly I strongly feel that you can only go so far with whatever lighting you choose, and that Ph is an area that has been ignored for way to long. With quality lighting of any type and stable Ph at natural levels (i.e. 8.3+ 24 hours per day) you will maximize health, coloration, and growth rate. Here's my light rig for reference (some of the G4's have been replaced with G6's)...

 

[jda]

Gotcha. Honestly, it's the color. My lighting rig covers the entire surface of the tank so shading isn't an issue even when I only run the Radions. I'm very particular about the appearance to my eyes (secondary to the health of the corals of course). I do not like the windex look of blue's only. I run ATI B+ and ATI Aquablue Specials for the T-5's, and the combination of those bulbs with the Radions on AB+ gives me the look that I like and my growth is phenomenal. Honestly I strongly feel that you can only go so far with whatever lighting you choose, and that Ph is an area that has been ignored for way to long. With quality lighting of any type and stable Ph at natural levels (i.e. 8.3+ 24 hours per day) you will maximize health, coloration, and growth rate. Here's my light rig for reference (some of the G4's have been replaced with G6's)...

Thanks for the reply. This is a great thing to discuss. 16x T5s are no joke and I think that if more LED folks took the time to stop being upset when somebody says that they can still improve there might be a day when nobody needs to supplement at all. Today is not that day. Your nuanced take is important to me and I appreciate it. If you actually look back, I never said that LED could not grow coral, but I did say that Tim and Adam had the best corals that I have ever seen under LED (ignoring the one tank where Adam still has the 6500k)... which I still stand by. This is not some kind of indictment. I wish that more people would study why and make other panels better.

I am a 400-500 indoor co2 guy, so pH is never a problem for me. The good thing is that you can get good pH while you get good lights.

 

[buruskeee]

The nuance is what matters. I would like to be able to have conversations with those who can tell without those who cannot tell or do not care chiming in that they all can do the simple, basic function of growing coral. Do you all not know or see that without this, the LEDs would still all be blue and white and burning the heck out of coral. For Radions to get better, it might be OK for those to actually look and see why the folks who grow the best stuff use them, right? Instead of getting defensive, why not ask a few questions?

The OP did not ask if his LEDs could grow coral. They know this. They asked about some of the nuance... of which it exists and matters.

You jump on every thread of this topic but somehow you’re not defensive? I’ve used every iteration of lighting. Again, provide me with evidence, if spectrum and PAR is the same, why are you so convinced MH or T5 will outgrow/give better health/insert measuring stick here than LEDs.

I promote all lighting. LED, T5, etc. what I want do is act like one is better and let folks misinform others because of their preference.

So again, laying out the baseline of “if spectrum and PAR is the same”, why are you so convinced MH or T5 somehow has a different quality for each PAR? There’s zero technical analysis that will explain this besides your opinion based arguments.

 

[Acroguy]

I am using plasma + ATI powermodules.Works great for me.I like the real sunshine look.

 

[buruskeee]

One major component is true uv light that very few LED fixtures produce and the ones that do hardly provides any. If that’s good or bad is up for debate…I’m not smart enough to figure that one out

yep, this is the ONLY thing that can be argued - spectrum. But some folks are trying to claim that 300PAR from MH is different from LED - nope.

That’s why I always lay the framework that assuming spectrum and intensity is exactly equal, there is literally no difference between technologies. Manufacturers are looking to adding more UV capabilities to match MH (most of that UV spectrum even in MH are filtered out prior to escaping the bulb anyways due to safety reasons).

 

[piranhaman00]

LOL, cough cough... I'll put my collection up against anyone's. I'll put a list together if you like, but I literally have over 200 different SPS in this tank alone, and the rest of the farm has quite a few more that are not in this tank. Grown under Radions as the primary lights with some T5 supplement.

Gotcha. Honestly, it's the color. My lighting rig covers the entire surface of the tank so shading isn't an issue even when I only run the Radions. I'm very particular about the appearance to my eyes (secondary to the health of the corals of course). I do not like the windex look of blue's only. I run ATI B+ and ATI Aquablue Specials for the T-5's, and the combination of those bulbs with the Radions on AB+ gives me the look that I like and my growth is phenomenal. Honestly I strongly feel that you can only go so far with whatever lighting you choose, and that Ph is an area that has been ignored for way to long. With quality lighting of any type and stable Ph at natural levels (i.e. 8.3+ 24 hours per day) you will maximize health, coloration, and growth rate. Here's my light rig for reference (some of the G4's have been replaced with G6's)...

Lol “some” t5? You could remove the LEDs completely and be fine. That’s 16 t5 bulbs hahaha