My Fishless Cycling Seems Stuck

[KiwiniD]

post a tank pic

= looking for visual proof cues unstated in the pic. such as: any growths that have shown up and weren't originally added. there's an order of deposition for visual creatures we can use to infer the presence of cycling bacteria, in addition to the fact no cycling chart ever made has a 26 day ammonia drop line. it has a 10-12 day one, which aligns with an interesting unsolicited data point in the opening descrip.

going solely, solely off a cheap ammonia kit this may not seem cycled.

but going off all other counter verifiers, it sure is. pics

I hope this is what you were looking for.

 

[KiwiniD]

Seachem stability may be an ineffective bacteria for a fishless cycle....

I don't understand all the comments made about Stability, but the consensus seems to be that it was not a good choice for introducing bacteria. I see a number of other products mentioned. Which is my best bet?

Did my putting the sponge from 20 gal tank into the new tank's filter for 24 hours do any good? I have read that is a good way to introduce bacteria. Should I left it in there longer?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I don't understand all the comments made about Stability, but the consensus seems to be that it was not a good choice for introducing bacteria. I see a number of other products mentioned. Which is my best bet?

Did my putting the sponge from 20 gal tank into the new tank's filter for 24 hours do any good? I have read that is a good way to introduce bacteria. Should I left it in there longer?

First, test again now/this evening and see if the ammonia level has dropped.

My go-to cycling bacteria is Fritz Turbo Start. Not saying you need to add anything, but if you decide to, that's what I'd recommend.

Adding the sponge from your established tank can definitely help, but I don't know if 24 hours is enough time. Plus, it will depend on where any new bacteria ended up... if you don't have enough rock and/or filter media for the bacteria to colonize, then most of the newly grown bacteria might end up colonizing the sponge... and if it's removed will not help the new tank.

You posted a photo earlier showing sand... how much rock is in the tank?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

And, the API ammonia test is perfectly fine!! The ONLY issue is that it measures total ammonia, not just free ammonia (which is the harmful kind). This is why, once your tank is producing nitrate, an API ammonia result between 0 and 0.25 can be considered to be 0 (free) ammonia. This is why my original comment to you was, "...if ammonia is gone (aka the color is less green than the 0.25 reading on the API chart), then your system is ready to handle a small bioload."

 

[brandon429]

I get burned by tanks with no rocks in the cycle one per thou

 

[brandon429]

Without digital testing your cycle analysis is subject to the same test variations most other stuck cycle posts encounter, api isn’t very helpful in these cases but theres also the added variables of no rocks in the display, which is how the vast majority of reef cycles asked to process ammonia loads are set up


your surface area in the system is still cycled, but it’s not directly in the center mass of the wastewater so the design isn’t as efficient at clearing ammonia as a common live rock setup

were you going to make this a reef tank? Where’s the rock

at one months time the surfaces are indeed covered in bacteria but they’re not efficiently placed to clear ammonia out quickly like the common rock stack you see in reef tanks

the way to adjust your cycle isn’t with different bottle bac, it’s to repeat the current approach once rocks are in the system.

 

[KiwiniD]

If the 2 ppm ammonia value is even remotely accurate, then correct, it is not cycled.

Without digital testing your cycle analysis is subject to the same test variations most other stuck cycle posts encounter, api isn’t very helpful in these cases but theres also the added variables of no rocks in the display, which is how the vast majority of reef cycles asked to process ammonia loads are set up


your surface area in the system is still cycled, but it’s not directly in the center mass of the wastewater so the design isn’t as efficient at clearing ammonia as a common live rock setup

were you going to make this a reef tank? Where’s the rock

at one months time the surfaces are indeed covered in bacteria but they’re not efficiently placed to clear ammonia out quickly like the common rock stack you see in reef tanks

the way to adjust your cycle isn’t with different bottle bac, it’s to repeat the current approach once rocks are in the system.

Thank you all for these most recent comments. I think I understand a little better your earlier comments. I had an artificial reef display made for me. It looks very realistic. I wanted the appearance, but did not want to deal with live coral (this is probably heresy to say on this site.) I will have to move the tank a few inches before I add fish and didn't want to interrupt the cycling by doing an almost total water change, disturbing the sand, and adding the display. I see now that the lack of the display may contribute to the problem I am having.

I will drain almost all the water, move the tank, put the display in and give it a while for bacteria to colonize. I will test every few days and, if the Ammonia goes back to zero, or close to zero, I'll test it again with 2 ppm to see if clears over night.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

Thanks

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thank you all for these most recent comments. I think I understand a little better your earlier comments. I had an artificial reef display made for me. It looks very realistic. I wanted the appearance, but did not want to deal with live coral (this is probably heresy to say on this site.) I will have to move the tank a few inches before I add fish and didn't want to interrupt the cycling by doing an almost total water change, disturbing the sand, and adding the display. I see now that the lack of the display may contribute to the problem I am having.

I will drain almost all the water, move the tank, put the display in and give it a while for bacteria to colonize. I will test every few days and, if the Ammonia goes back to zero, or close to zero, I'll test it again with 2 ppm to see if clears over night.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

Thanks

Yes, that sounds reasonable.
What is the artificial "display" made out of? The reason rock is useful for creating a biofilter is because of its porosity. While bacteria will certainly colonize the surface of an artificial surface, it may not be sufficient to serve as a good filter. If this is the case, adding something like Seachem Matrix (just one example) can help create a suitable biofilter. Or, you can just add a few pieces of rock in addition to the artificial one.
(Also, anything you put in -actual rock or an artificial display - will become covered in algae in a short period of time... it's not like freshwater where you can keep decorations clean)

 

[KiwiniD]

Yes, that sounds reasonable.
What is the artificial "display" made out of? The reason rock is useful for creating a biofilter is because of its porosity. While bacteria will certainly colonize the surface of an artificial surface, it may not be sufficient to serve as a good filter. If this is the case, adding something like Seachem Matrix (just one example) can help create a suitable biofilter. Or, you can just add a few pieces of rock in addition to the artificial one.
(Also, anything you put in -actual rock or an artificial display - will become covered in algae in a short period of time... it's not like freshwater where you can keep decorations clean)

The base of the display is real (not live) coral. Of the decorations added to it, some are real (coral, barnacles) and some are synthetic. The individual who made it for me has a long, successful reputation with marine aquariums. As for algae, I am very familiar with that. I switch out the coral from my current tank and clean it every time I do a water change.

 

[brandon429]

your system needs its filtration handled in a way that differs from nearly every tank on the site

which makes for fun planning/adjusting the needs to the job at hand

you sound interested in the process that makes it fun to discuss.

the enduring rule that guides your setup is that within any use of bottle bac and a feed source and at worst 20 days wait, whatever surface area you have stewing in said mix has enough filter bacteria on it to 'go' and no testing is required, counting to day 20 is the measured item-but you have to place that media correctly and have enough of it in your particular setup.

we do the big water change at the end of the wait to export nutrients, that cause algae, as soon as you begin lighting the system. a clean start is always best after an extended wait in purposefully overfed waters (the cycle wait time). reefs are designed to clear 2ppm of ammonia fast, due to their surface area

I wouldn't use 2ppm in your setup, half that is plenty.

your test kit isn't going to help at all because you can't be sure of it's truth. if your testing methods and technique are perfect, there's many nuances required to interpret api correctly and know when it's flat wrong, AND you have a faultless test kit (Rare for api, do a search) then you might get a helpful guide for your cycle

but if you count 20 days, that's far beyond what cycle bacteria require to setup in any common arrangment and counting days takes the place of tedious testing and not knowing if your readout is correct because its API. your issue is that only the edges of your water table are filtered, what swirls around in the center not broken up by mass (rocks in the tank) isn't filtered as well. if you have rolling currents in the center, nobody knows, then wastewater tumbles and doesn't turnover as well.



I can see the sand surface area above and can envision the coral scape going in, the resin setup those look nice

let's see a picture of your filter setup

the simplest way to view your cycle is that 20 days of waiting for whatever is created as a biofilter means cycled, testing isn't what determines the completion. the timeframes to coat a given surface area in bac are already known and charted and if your system filtration is designed like other synthetic scape setups yours will perform the same/carry the same number of fish without requiring tedious testing to determine that ability.

 

[brandon429]

also factors/the big picture

the reason you're having to endure cycling toil from nine sources is because you're trying to make a tank safe for mixed species reef fish.

fish disease is your concern. it may seem negligible, but it's such a pressing matter because all the help threads you see in the disease forum are from reef tanks, who never lack surface area and who's biosystem is orders more efficient at suppressing disease than an all-synthetic system. your potential for fish disease preps is more pronounced than any reef tank on the site.

for any extra day's wait for the scaping to cycle up, be reading new help threads in the disease forum. Look what it takes, the aligned steps for quarantine, fallow and medication runs that Jay has to balance for each person to stop all their stuff dying. you must master that before you stock with fish, or you'll be buying 2 rounds of replacement fish annually.

your tank isn't safe for fish until you have a disease plan that exceeds any common new tank setup/the cycle isn't the hard part.

it didn't used to be this way, fish from pet stores weren't as disease ridden as they are now. this is the new way unavoidably though, see the disease forum, look at the degree of work and prep isolation it takes to get mixed species ready for a reef tank, with naturally suppressive mechanisms in place due to the rocks they use (and the benthic life those support)

imagine applying no preps to a system five times likelier to have quick disease issues.

 

[KiwiniD]

your system needs its filtration handled in a way that differs from nearly every tank on the site

which makes for fun planning/adjusting the needs to the job at hand

you sound interested in the process that makes it fun to discuss.

the enduring rule that guides your setup is that within any use of bottle bac and a feed source and at worst 20 days wait, whatever surface area you have stewing in said mix has enough filter bacteria on it to 'go' and no testing is required, counting to day 20 is the measured item-but you have to place that media correctly and have enough of it in your particular setup.

we do the big water change at the end of the wait to export nutrients, that cause algae, as soon as you begin lighting the system. a clean start is always best after an extended wait in purposefully overfed waters (the cycle wait time). reefs are designed to clear 2ppm of ammonia fast, due to their surface area

I wouldn't use 2ppm in your setup, half that is plenty.

your test kit isn't going to help at all because you can't be sure of it's truth. if your testing methods and technique are perfect, there's many nuances required to interpret api correctly and know when it's flat wrong, AND you have a faultless test kit (Rare for api, do a search) then you might get a helpful guide for your cycle

but if you count 20 days, that's far beyond what cycle bacteria require to setup in any common arrangment and counting days takes the place of tedious testing and not knowing if your readout is correct because its API. your issue is that only the edges of your water table are filtered, what swirls around in the center not broken up by mass (rocks in the tank) isn't filtered as well. if you have rolling currents in the center, nobody knows, then wastewater tumbles and doesn't turnover as well.



I can see the sand surface area above and can envision the coral scape going in, the resin setup those look nice

let's see a picture of your filter setup

the simplest way to view your cycle is that 20 days of waiting for whatever is created as a biofilter means cycled, testing isn't what determines the completion. the timeframes to coat a given surface area in bac are already known and charted and if your system filtration is designed like other synthetic scape setups yours will perform the same/carry the same number of fish without requiring tedious testing to determine that ability.

Thanks for all this.

My filter is a garden variety Fluval 40 hang-on-the-back unit.

also factors/the big picture

the reason you're having to endure cycling toil from nine sources is because you're trying to make a tank safe for mixed species reef fish.

fish disease is your concern. it may seem negligible, but it's such a pressing matter because all the help threads you see in the disease forum are from reef tanks, who never lack surface area and who's biosystem is orders more efficient at suppressing disease than an all-synthetic system. your potential for fish disease preps is more pronounced than any reef tank on the site.

for any extra day's wait for the scaping to cycle up, be reading new help threads in the disease forum. Look what it takes, the aligned steps for quarantine, fallow and medication runs that Jay has to balance for each person to stop all their stuff dying. you must master that before you stock with fish, or you'll be buying 2 rounds of replacement fish annually.

your tank isn't safe for fish until you have a disease plan that exceeds any common new tank setup/the cycle isn't the hard part.

it didn't used to be this way, fish from pet stores weren't as disease ridden as they are now. this is the new way unavoidably though, see the disease forum, look at the degree of work and prep isolation it takes to get mixed species ready for a reef tank, with naturally suppressive mechanisms in place due to the rocks they use (and the benthic life those support)

imagine applying no preps to a system five times likelier to have quick disease issues.

Thanks for this info. I will dig in.

I have not had a problem with disease in my 20 gallon tank, perhaps because I have two of the same species (clowns) and one Royal Gramma. I have had the three of them forever. My filter there is a smaller Fluval and the tank has several pieces of natural (not live) coral that take up far less volume than this new display.

 

[brandon429]

Nice. That filter setup once the display reef is cycled can carry a few fish no problem.

 

[KiwiniD]

Nice. That filter setup once the display reef is cycled can carry a few fish no problem.

As we say here in Hawaii, Mahalo

 

[brandon429]

one small tweak you can make to your HOB filter is to separate the inlet and outflow areas better than stock

is it true that the input for the filter is a plastic pipe that sticks down right under where the outflow comes into the tank?

if so, that's the usual stock setup, it's a tad inefficient because filtered water is poured right down near the inlet to cause a loop, to the exclusion of the side waters of the tank if there isn't any other accessory flow to randomize currents.

you can make your filter work better, clear more water per hour, by installing an L turn or some type of fitment that extends the intake farther away from the output of the filter. it's less short circuiting for wastewater

if you extend it deeper into the tank and off to the side you are intaking far less filtered water and far more dirty water per pump pass. that synthetic display will also help greatly in filtering once it takes on a load of bacteria, just not as much as live rock would accomplish.

 

[KiwiniD]

Thanks for this idea

 

[Blopple]

Thank you all for these most recent comments. I think I understand a little better your earlier comments. I had an artificial reef display made for me. It looks very realistic. I wanted the appearance, but did not want to deal with live coral (this is probably heresy to say on this site.) I will have to move the tank a few inches before I add fish and didn't want to interrupt the cycling by doing an almost total water change, disturbing the sand, and adding the display. I see now that the lack of the display may contribute to the problem I am having.

I will drain almost all the water, move the tank, put the display in and give it a while for bacteria to colonize. I will test every few days and, if the Ammonia goes back to zero, or close to zero, I'll test it again with 2 ppm to see if clears over night.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

Thanks

It's your aquarium! If you don't want live coral don't do live coral. And don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

Reef tanks (like mine) are a dime a dozen. Always love to see something a little different!

Also glad to see you got some great answers from some great people here. Excited to see what you end up with!

 

[KiwiniD]

Thanks for your comments