My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

[MnFish1]

Yeah what the website says and what the bottles say do not match up.

Yes - thats true. Hopefully the company will clarify it

 

[MnFish1]

Seems this thread went south fast, and turned into a witch hunt.

If the CEO of UWC's head was on a pitchfork would that suffice?

We have at least one poster - that said he/she would get an answer from the company - Lets see what they say. I do not believe that if there was QAC present in a product that they would be exempt from EPA rules (unless its a really low concentration??) Again - this is another tempest in a teapot - to me - if it works - who cares. If the company does not want to share why it works - who cares. If like one poster - they lost a lot of coral - complain vigorously. I think its poor that the company does not show the same ingredients on the bottle as the website.

 

[taricha]

Seems this thread went south fast, and turned into a witch hunt.

If the CEO of UWC's head was on a pitchfork would that suffice?

Actually the OP is asking the correct Qs about how to think of its use and the occasional bad outcomes. ...

Now that we believe well beyond a reasonable doubt that Vibrant contains some type of (poly)quaternary ammonium, I'd like to understand the conditions in which its use can lead to SPS crashes. (Same with Fluconazole use. Actually, even more so. Vibrant use is clearly discretionary, while bryopsis removal has no other option I am aware of. Anyway, another thread for that.)

Many thousands of reefers have dosed the stuff, thousands of LFS tank service teams use the stuff VERY regularly. I'd bet half the tanks serviced get dosed at some point.

Are quats stable in a marine environment or do they break down? Do they accumulate?
Does GAC remove quats? Skimmer?
How powerful is the carbon source?
Which SPS cannot tolerate quats well? Tenuis? Milli? Any acropora? Montipora?
Are the SPS crashes dosing at the weekly or biweekly dosing regimes?
Does the AlgaeFix quat version have SPS crash histories also?

Also generally understanding the mechanism of action changes how people use it.

 

[taricha]

Cell density must be extremely low (assuming bacteria/spores are present) if you centrifuged and there was no mass at the bottom of the tubes. Just curious - was centrifuged liquid uniformly transparent?

here's a quick view of what people mean when they say it's clear with an undetectable pellet. Yes - uniformly transparent.

Might have to zoom in to see, but vibrant is unique among hobby bacterial products in that it produces no pellet or condensed material when centrifuged.
Each tube was 10mL of thoroughly shaken product, centrifuged 4000rpm for 10min.

1 - Microbacter7
2 - Waste Away
3 - Bacto Therapy (Fauna Marin)
4 - FritzZyme 460
5 - Pristine (seachem)
6 - Vibrant

 

[MnFish1]

here's a quick view of what people mean when they say it's clear with an undetectable pellet. Yes - uniformly transparent.

Might have to zoom in to see, but vibrant is unique among hobby bacterial products in that it produces no pellet or condensed material when centrifuged.
Each tube was 10mL of thoroughly shaken product, centrifuged 4000rpm for 10min.

1 - Microbacter7
2 - Waste Away
3 - Bacto Therapy (Fauna Marin)
4 - FritzZyme 460
5 - Pristine (seachem)
6 - Vibrant

Are spores centrifuged away at 4000 RPM? I would think 10,000 RPM. Either way - good work

 

[taricha]

Most of what's in that picture is spores. Waste Away and some of the others are explicitly spores. (Bacillus etc)

 

[MnFish1]

Most of what's in that picture is spores. Waste Away and some of the others are explicitly spores. (Bacillus etc)

based on 'what'?

 

[MnFish1]

In the end who cares? That's your logic? WELL, I CARE! I would have never put QAC into my system had I known that.

You don't see the problem with a company promoting a safe bacteria solution that targets algae but in the end is really something else that could be very harmful to not just your tank, but to yourself as well if not dosed or handled properly?

lol - you are mis-stating - or I wasnt clear.

1. I had a problem with vibrant and Acros
2. I don't know of any evidence that QAC - are toxic to coral - or at what level.
3. im sorry your coral died. Seriously. Hopefully you would be as supportive when my apex dumped a liter of Ca/alk into my tank -
4. I suggest as I said earlier. - there is no miracle cure.

 

[DrZoidburg]

DWr2r @taricha have you considered the amino acids reacting with bromophenol blue?

 

[JCOLE]

lol - you are mis-stating - or I wasnt clear.

1. I had a problem with vibrant and Acros
2. I don't know of any evidence that QAC - are toxic to coral - or at what level.
3. im sorry your coral died. Seriously. Hopefully you would be as supportive when my apex dumped a liter of Ca/alk into my tank -
4. I suggest as I said earlier. - there is no miracle cure.

I get that. However, unless you work for UWC or know their secret magic recipe then you yourself do not know what is in Vibrant, correct? If you don't know, then there is a good chance that it's not bacteria but other things? Just saying that maybe you shouldn't be quick to challenge other people's findings that are proving this unless you know something we don't.

I am actually over the loss of my corals. There's nothing that can be done about it now. However, I do have a sore spot because of the loss and wont be using Vibrant again. I just want other hobbyists to know exactly what their dumping into their tanks beforehand. And this will need to come from the company to make it right.

 

[JCOLE]

Seems this thread went south fast, and turned into a witch hunt.

If the CEO of UWC's head was on a pitchfork would that suffice?

Nah just 100% transparency from UWC would suffice.

 

[MnFish1]

I get that. However, unless you work for UWC or know their secret magic recipe then you yourself do not know what is in Vibrant, correct? If you don't know, then there is a good chance that it's not bacteria but other things? Just saying that maybe you shouldn't be quick to challenge other people's findings that are proving this unless you know something we don't.

I am actually over the loss of my corals. There's nothing that can be done about it now. However, I do have a sore spot because of the loss and wont be using Vibrant again. I just want other hobbyists to know exactly what their dumping into their tanks beforehand. And this will need to come from the company to make it right.

I'm only waiting for their answers as are you. And this somewhat paranoid theme of yours - that I'm working for UWC - I'm done with it. Last couple weeks I was working for seachem because - I didnt agree with some experiments not on prime - toxicity thread. I believe - that the company is going to give some answers - in the meantime - can you please leave me out of the paranoia realm? I tell the truth - I have nothing to do with UWC - except in saltwater - a couple corals (many) died - in FW it was a dream

 

[MnFish1]

I get that. However, unless you work for UWC or know their secret magic recipe then you yourself do not know what is in Vibrant, correct? If you don't know, then there is a good chance that it's not bacteria but other things? Just saying that maybe you shouldn't be quick to challenge other people's findings that are proving this unless you know something we don't.

I am actually over the loss of my corals. There's nothing that can be done about it now. However, I do have a sore spot because of the loss and wont be using Vibrant again. I just want other hobbyists to know exactly what their dumping into their tanks beforehand. And this will need to come from the company to make it right.

PS - I already answered this - it could be xxx - it could be zzz. Nothing here has proved anything 'TO ME'. I have a hint - but IDK

 

[DrZoidburg]

Was the owner of this brand here? This is why I shut up mostly. I don't think two test I saw proved any quaternary ammonia , or fluconazole.

 

[JCOLE]

I'm only waiting for their answers as are you. And this somewhat paranoid theme of yours - that I'm working for UWC - I'm done with it. Last couple weeks I was working for seachem because - I didnt agree with some experiments not on prime - toxicity thread. I believe - that the company is going to give some answers - in the meantime - can you please leave me out of the paranoia realm? I tell the truth - I have nothing to do with UWC - except in saltwater - a couple corals (many) died - in FW it was a dream

How is it a paranoid theme? You are basically the only one that is questioning taricha and others with their findings and making it seem they are incorrect or missed something in their experiments. Again, just stating a fact.

This is why I am saying the same as you. Maybe you shouldn't make it seem that taricha and others are incorrect until UWC says otherwise.

Also, it seems your getting a little frustrated. Please don't take what I am saying as direct towards you. Just having a conversation on a difference of opinions.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

I tell you, I've been around reefing for a long time. I've seen a lot of disagreements, good, logical discussions, etc. It never ceases to amaze me how people will demand to know exactly what the recipe of a product is and then, trash the company because they won't give up their Intellectual Property.

Vibrant is for sale as a product with a specific application. No one forces anyone to buy it, it is not a requirement for anyone.

It took care if all of my Bryopsis, regardless of whether it was in the light or not. People cry foul all the time on ChemiClean as well, saying it killed their whole tank. Yet they fail to follow the basic instructions.

Vibrant requires measured dosing in ml. It requires a skimmer OR significant water changes weekly. Preferably both. Same with ChemiClean, most run it with no skimmer and no water changes to export the nutrients that released from the algae, and then cry foul.

In short, use products or don't, it's your choice. But if you can't follow dosing instructions or follow the actual directions of usage, don't trash the company for your lack of procedure.

And as always, who knows that Vibrant killed any corals? If you have that much Bryopsis in an SPS tank, you obviously have far more serious issues that need to be addressed. Anything could have activated and started happening to kill the corals that was already there and going to happen.

 

[jcolliii]

Thinking about more quantitative methods... TLC? Maybe using a column to fractionate the solution with a series of extractions, evaporate those, and using the suspected compound as a standard, see where the dissolved compounds wash out? Man, it's been a long time since I did TLC, and I would need help with what might be a good choice of eluent, but I have access to lab space, and if I were to ask nicely - prepped TLC plates, and a variety of organic solvents...

 

[MnFish1]

How is it a paranoid theme? You are basically the only one that is questioning taricha and others with their findings and making it seem they are incorrect or missed something in their experiments. Again, just stating a fact.

This is why I am saying the same as you. Maybe you shouldn't make it seem that taricha and others are incorrect until UWC says otherwise.

Also, it seems your getting a little frustrated. Please don't take what I am saying as direct towards you. Just having a conversation on a difference of opinions.

Well because I have a little experience in the area - for one - 2 the company say they are going to answer the question. It seems to me like you lost a lot of coral and want 'something' - no clue what is it, If they have the same ingredients as algeaefix - the what' - Will you demand that they pay you? (I already said you should vigorously complain - so - now - please - get off my back thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

How is it a paranoid theme?

The paranoid theme is that you are suggesting I work for UWC - despite me saying I have no connection whatsoever with them. Thats paranoid, its weird and it's harassment - So - lets depart the train that I work for UWC - Deal?

 

[DrZoidburg]

Thinking about more quantitative methods... TLC? Maybe using a column to fractionate the solution with a series of extractions, evaporate those, and using the suspected compound as a standard, see where the dissolved compounds wash out? Man, it's been a long time since I did TLC, and I would need help with what might be a good choice of eluent, but I have access to lab space, and if I were to ask nicely - prepped TLC plates, and a variety of organic solvents...

This wont tell you too much here would it? Unless one knew what was in this to compare to tlc?