My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

[DrZoidburg]

Spot your fatal flaw in this first, then review your argument, then decide if you still need more data from me.

Your right I'm sorry it was hard to see small picture. I labeled (b) opposite. I'll still tell you though a shift of 5 nanometers is not convincing. I will also still tell you that they did not start out in a basic form. Yellow in high ph(is the basic deprotonated) Red/orange in low ph (is the acid) I think I could also explain more why you saw a green color earlier in vials. Chemistry aside its actually pretty easy to under stand and laughable.

 

[jda]

Wonder if @Bulk Reef Supply would like to amend their videos on the stuff. Imagine that they would still kill algae plenty well since quat does that, but perhaps edit out the parts about bacteria or even do the same study with API Algaefix at a reduced cost with accurate labeling. The two local stores that I visit the most are not selling this anymore.

 

[taricha]

I labeled (b) opposite.

correct. you flipped Methyl Orange acid/base.
but you are still botching the fundamentals...

I will also still tell you that they did not start out in a basic form.

keep looking. You'll figure it out.

 

[Ghost25]

I find the mental gymnastics trying to claim that the results @taricha is seeing are false positives bizarre.

I think you've gone above and beyond to show this product is very similar to AlgaeFix. I think this issue could be put to bed once and for all by sending out for LC/MS. There are not many labs that cater to individuals but something like this might be worth a try.

https://www.eag.com/techniques/mass-spec/liquid-chromatography-mass-spectometry-lc-ms/

They specifically note their ability to characterize QACs, and should be able to identify it to the specific molecule.

 

[jeffww]

I am working on characterization by ftir. Although tandem lc/ms would be better, its expensive to do. Still working out the kinks of purification. Our core’s hplc/lcms is back online so perhaps I can run it…but I would prefer not to risk damaging the columns.

 

[ScottB]

I feel really smart hanging out with you folks here, nodding my head like I have a clue what these acronyms really mean. I just make up my own explanations and that seems to work for me.

 

[JCOLE]

@Ghost25 How much does it cost to send out for LC/MS testing? If pricey then we can set up a go fund me page or something so people can pitch in. I would gladly pitch in for this. I already paid almost more in shipping my old bottle to @taricha for testing than I did to buy Vibrant in the first place. I would gladly send more $$ for further testing.

 

[Ghost25]

@Ghost25 How much does it cost to send out for LC/MS testing? If pricey then we can set up a go fund me page or something so people can pitch in. I would gladly pitch in for this. I already paid almost more in shipping my old bottle to @taricha for testing than I did to buy Vibrant in the first place. I would gladly send more $$ for further testing.

Might need to shop around, and many companies don't list their prices online, but this place in the UK charges $200/sample for QAC specific testing, so I would expect to be around that ballpark for GC/MS depending on what protocol you want run.

https://www.fera.co.uk/qac.html

 

[taricha]

I think you've gone above and beyond to show this product is very similar to AlgaeFix.

interestingly, I looked quickly at some different Quats yesterday.
One a hand sanitizer with benzalkonium chloride and another a spray disinfectant that was a mix if that and another quat.

What's surprising is that they moved the LaMotte indicators in the same general way as the polyquat in algaefix (and whatever is in vibrant) but the specific details were easily distinguished.
That is to say Vibrant doesn't just generate a general "quat" response from these indicators, it elicits specifically a response indistinguishable from the polyquat in AlgaeFix, that is noticeably different than the response to quats in sanitizers / disinfectants.

(this isn't surprising at this point - if Vibrant has a quat it's going to be an algaecide and not a hand sanitizer / disinfectant, but it's interesting that the chemical responses of the indicators were distinguishable between Quat/Polyquat)

@jeffww doubt that helps with your analysis any, but thought I'd share.

 

[bishoptf]

interestingly, I looked quickly at some different Quats yesterday.
One a hand sanitizer with benzalkonium chloride and another a spray disinfectant that was a mix if that and another quat.

What's surprising is that they moved the LaMotte indicators in the same general way as the polyquat in algaefix (and whatever is in vibrant) but the specific details were easily distinguished.
That is to say Vibrant doesn't just generate a general "quat" response from these indicators, it elicits specifically a response indistinguishable from the polyquat in AlgaeFix, that is noticeably different than the response to quats in sanitizers / disinfectants.

(this isn't surprising at this point - if Vibrant has a quat it's going to be an algaecide and not a hand sanitizer / disinfectant, but it's interesting that the chemical responses of the indicators were distinguishable between Quat/Polyquat)

@jeffww doubt that helps with your analysis any, but thought I'd share.

It's almost like your testing algaefix...hmmm, wait a minute let me think about that..

Maybe that is the secret ingredient, it contains algaefix...rofl

sorry, not sorry

 

[ScottB]

It's almost like your testing algaefix...hmmm, wait a minute let me think about that..

Maybe that is the secret ingredient, it contains algaefix...rofl

sorry, not sorry

I cannot stop myself.

(poly)QAC = duck quack?

 

[LgTas]

I'd chip in for the QAC specific testing. Put my bottles aside to either dump or, if @UWC decide to be clear on what is causing these results, retain.

 

[jcolliii]

Isn't there a class action being put together because strawberry poptarts contain no actual strawberry? If this product is being intentionally deceptive, contains things not listed and does not contain things that are, seems a good basis for recovery of purchase price for anyone who has bought this or who has lost corals when using properly.

My offer still stands - if we think this is the same compound, I'm willing to give TLC a try...

 

[taricha]

To follow up on this...

We ARE still trying to figure out why there are seemingly "bad bottles" that can cause unusually bad outcomes (anecdotal).

...I think I've got some bottles headed my way in the mail.

@JCOLE and @Charlie’s Frags were kind enough to send me their bottles of Vibrant that seemed to cause bad outcomes in their systems.

I used the same concept as illustrated earlier here to compare how much a given amount of the product reacts with the indicator pigments and reduces their peak absorbance. The question is, is there a notably higher concentration of "quat-like" substance in Vibrant in bottles that gave "bad" results?

Here's a plot of the data.

Left plot compares my new bottle - blue data - (identical effect size to algaefix) to the two suspect bottles. @JCOLE 's bottle - yellow data - is indistinguishable in effect size from mine. That is, it is not unusually high in "quat-like" chemical.
@Charlie’s Frags bottle - red data - was somewhat more concentrated though by about 25%.
On the right plot, you can see this by shifting his bottle amounts by +25%, then all measurements line up nicely.

Takeaways:
1) JCOLE's bottle was not a bad batch as judged by the size of the "quat response" detected. Any bad outcomes associated with that bottle aren't form an unusually high amount of the "quat-like" chemical.
2) Charlie's Frags bottle may have actually been a bad batch. It seems to have the "quat-like" chemical in 25% higher concentration.
3) I'm not sure if +25% is enough to explain unusually bad results. maybe. not a slam-dunk in my opinion.
4) evaporation could account for the +25% concentration? Maybe. I can't rule it out. The bottle was from ~2018. But JCOLE's bottle was a year old and showed no increased concentration.

 

[jda]

I have probably said this before, but the surprise organic carbon in the bottle is probably the reason for quick/acute issues. Some people are not ready for it and some already dose, so this can be an issue since they don't know that they are adding more. Most of the issues with the quat are long term, of which there are some of those too especially with stonies.

 

[ScottB]

I don't suppose anyone has info regarding the stability/longevity of QACs in a marine environment?

Does the stuff accumulate? There is no mention of removing carbon or skimmer.

 

[jda]

I asked Dr. Holmes-Farley and the chemistry forum. Sorry that I did not post back. You can find the thread there.

In a nutshell:
Will quickly bind to anything negatively charged - nearly all organic tissue is negatively charged. Could bind to rock and sand. If bound to organic tissue, it will stay stable until absorbed. If bound to rock or sand, will eventually break down after quite some time and unlikely that the bind will fail. Opinon of DR. RHF, with no studies or anything, that the stuff will bind to negative charged things well before any filtration or skimmer could have any effect on the amount. The substance is stable and well understood, but no real focus on marine environments.

 

[DrZoidburg]

correct. you flipped Methyl Orange acid/base.
but you are still botching the fundamentals...

keep looking. You'll figure it out.

I got this. Do you get the picture its kind of crude. What your seeing when you mix indicators Is not representative of any ph shift. It is simple a matter of the colors. When you change the colors, you change the absorbance, and change the intensity. If you plug in all your nanometer numbers, and compare to the rule that what it absorbs will show the opposite your peaks after adding these will correspond to about the same peaks you see in shift. This is not a shift based on ph or additives. Also look I will provide pictures, amino acids, or any pq does not absorb in the range your meter shows.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Also plan a test for what you saw on page 3 to stop this outright.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@taricha Why does a mixture of amino acid glow under 365Nanometer uv light?