My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

[taricha]

with two separate methodologies in agreement, I think it’s pretty safe to say that vibrant is nothing more than polyquat masquerading as a bacterial additive.

well, I don't know what's "safe to say" in this hobby , but the presence of a quat a lot like algaefix, in concentration similar to Algaefix seems far more likely than not.

 

[taricha]

My only question.....

Why is this in the SPS subforum, and not in general, or the chem section?

Lol. yesterday I had that thought and wondered what forum this was even in, and then checked...
"how did we even get here?"

@ScottB might at some point request mods move to Reef chemistry forum, (and change title to ask if Vibrant contains AlgaeFix ingredient)

 

[homer1475]

i guess I was just thinking this might get more "seasoned" eyes on it in the chem or general forums.

 

[Miami Reef]

Lol. yesterday I had that thought and wondered what forum this was even in, and then checked...
"how did we even get here?"

@ScottB might at some point request mods move to Reef chemistry forum, (and change title to ask if Vibrant contains AlgaeFix ingredient)

I think we should leave the title. It shows the progression and evolution of this discussion. Changing the tile will not be consistent with the entire beginning of this thread.

 

[ScottB]

My only question.....

Why is this in the SPS subforum, and not in general, or the chem section?

Valid logic but it was actually intentional. Successful SPS keepers in general are very discerning about what they put in their tanks. Plus, I am familiar with a bunch of smart people that tend to hang out here.

 

[homer1475]

Valid logic but it was actually intentional. Successful SPS keepers in general are very discerning about what they put in their tanks. Plus, I am familiar with a bunch of smart people that tend to hang out here.

Kind of the reason I hang out here too. lol Thought that had may been the reason, but fluc doesn't seem to effect anything besides SPS too. So thought that may have been the reasoning too.

 

[ScottB]

Lol. yesterday I had that thought and wondered what forum this was even in, and then checked...
"how did we even get here?"

@ScottB might at some point request mods move to Reef chemistry forum, (and change title to ask if Vibrant contains AlgaeFix ingredient)

Hmmm. Then I could remove all my posts where I had to admit I was "wrong". Compelling.

Nice work @taricha .

 

[FEED ME ZOAS]

Something yet unexplained is Vibrants tendency to bring nutrient levels down. I t would seem the simplest explanation for that would be bacteria. Can bacteria even survive in a qac solution? It feels to me like we're missing major pieces of the vibrant puzzle. Whatever vibrant truly is, there's something weird somewhere.

 

[jda]

There are no shortage of compounds that encourage bacterial growth that end up bringing down residual N and P levels that have no actual bacteria in them. You have easy access to a bunch... sugar, vinegar, vodka, ethanol, etc. I would not assume that there is only one thing in the bottle.

 

[FEED ME ZOAS]

There are no shortage of compounds that encourage bacterial growth that end up bringing down residual N and P levels that have no actual bacteria in them. You have easy access to a bunch... sugar, vinegar, vodka, ethanol, etc. I would not assume that there is only one thing in the bottle.

Certainly don't think there's one component. Just that that's another effect of vibrant that we have possible explanations for, but nothing solid.

 

[Miami Reef]

Does vibrant (bacteria) attacking cyano (bacteria) give clues about what’s in it?

 

[Miami Reef]

@taricha @Scott B. @MnFish1

Do you think it’s safe for me to dose vibrant in my tank? I like how it makes my tank crystal clear. I also have a small dino and cyano problem that dino claims to remove. I also saw a BRS video where coralline algae increased after using vibrant (maybe because algae stopped competing).

I already have a bottle at home. I just think I need the “go ahead” before I can use it…because I’m a little scared TBH even though nothing happened when I’ve used it in the past.

 

[Miami Reef]

Especially since “chemicals” would make Taricha feel better since it won’t reproduce and get out of control.

 

[MnFish1]

@taricha @Scott B. @MnFish1

Do you think it’s safe for me to dose vibrant in my tank? I like how it makes my tank crystal clear. I also have a small dino and cyano problem that dino claims to remove. I also saw a BRS video where coralline algae increased after using vibrant (maybe because algae stopped competing).

I already have a bottle at home. I just think I need the “go ahead” before I can use it…because I’m a little scared TBH even though nothing happened when I’ve used it in the past.

I think lots of people have used it - and lots of people have had success. some have had problems. No one knows. So - if I were to use it again - I would use a smaller dose than recommended - and go from there. THIS is one of those times where patience is a virtue - IMHO

 

[taricha]

Do you think it’s safe for me to dose vibrant in my tank? I like how it makes my tank crystal clear.

It's safe for almost everyone who uses it. Huge threads of people using it with success. Losses are rare. You apparently like how your tank responds to it, nothing learned in here changes that, except how you think about its mechanics for killing algae.

(I personally prefer algaefix, because it tells me what it is, and seemingly Vibrant does not.)

 

[Miami Reef]

It's safe for almost everyone who uses it. Huge threads of people using it with success. Losses are rare. You apparently like how your tank responds to it, nothing learned in here changes that, except how you think about its mechanics for killing algae.

(I personally prefer algaefix, because it tells me what it is, and seemingly Vibrant does not.)

I agree. Once I finish my bottle I will purchase algaefix.

 

[moz71]

Valid logic but it was actually intentional. Successful SPS keepers in general are very discerning about what they put in their tanks. Plus, I am familiar with a bunch of smart people that tend to hang out here.

Are you saying Lps and softy keepers are dumber? Lol. Just kidding. I chuckled to myself when I thought this! Btw. I’m purely entertained by this thread following silently!

 

[Miami Reef]

Are you saying Lps and softy keepers are dumber? Lol. Just kidding. I chuckled to myself when I thought this! Btw. I’m purely entertained by this thread following silently!

A tear rolls off a softie owner.

 

[taricha]

One more data dump for today...
Since AlgaeFix contains 4.5% of a polyquat, that is well above levels harmful to bacteria, so it's possible we might see some level of bacteria suppression with a high overdose of it. And if vibrant in fact has as much of a similar substance in it, then we might see the same.
The caveat is that they are not generally good sterilizers in hard water (saltwater).

"Activity can be affected by the presence of water hardness (when used to dilute a concentrated product), fat-containing substances, and anionic surfactants. QACs have a pleasant odor, are not aggressive on surfaces, and have low toxicity. They are widely used as cleaners/disinfectants on general, noncritical surfaces, including the removal of gross soil. QACs and other surfactants are also used as preservatives (e.g., in paints and cosmetics). Some QACs and amphoterics are also used at low concentrations as antiseptics." source

So I went looking for any sort of bacterial suppression effect with Algaefix and Vibrant in high doses in tank water....
I took tank water and added 250mg/L of ground up fish flake + 100mg/L of glucose to grow a bunch of bacteria. I added 2 drops/L of methylene blue. The blue color can be used to indicate bacterial activity, because when the bacteria consume all the O2 in the water, the methylene blue gets reduced and loses its color. (google for more: Methylene Blue Reduction Test)

After 15.8 hrs, the samples were still all fully blue (had not depleted O2 yet).

But by 17.9 hours you could see that the highest levels (1/10) of AlgaeFix and Vibrant had lower or slower bacterial growth than the others, which were already mostly de-colorized.

This effect was very tiny, however and within a half hour the highest concentrations of Algaefix and Vibrant had nearly caught up to the others.

(left to right: AlgaeFix 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


(left to right: Vibrant 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


Takeaways:
1) again, Algaefix and Vibrant are weirdly similar - this time on a rate-of-bacterial growth test.
2) 1/10 dilutions of Algaefix and Vibrant delayed rate of bacterial metabolism in richly fed tank water by a small, but detectable and nearly identical amount. There is nothing in the claimed ingredient list of Vibrant that suggests it should delay bacterial growth.
3) the bacterial suppression effect of even a high amount (1/10th dilution) of the polyquat in Algaefix - and whatever is in Vibrant - is really small in saltwater, less than an hour's worth of bacterial growth.
4) It does't seem impossible to keep some spores etc viable in pure AlgaeFix or Vibrant, but that wasn't tested.
5) Concern about the polyquat in algaefix (and perhaps in vibrant) being a risk to saltwater microbiome seems very small.

 

[Miami Reef]

One more data dump for today...
Since AlgaeFix contains 4.5% of a polyquat, that is well above levels harmful to bacteria, so it's possible we might see some level of bacteria suppression with a high overdose of it. And if vibrant in fact has as much of a similar substance in it, then we might see the same.
The caveat is that they are not generally good sterilizers in hard water (saltwater).



So I went looking for any sort of bacterial suppression effect with Algaefix and Vibrant in high doses in tank water....
I took tank water and added 250mg/L of ground up fish flake + 100mg/L of glucose to grow a bunch of bacteria. I added 2 drops/L of methylene blue. The blue color can be used to indicate bacterial activity, because when the bacteria consume all the O2 in the water, the methylene blue gets reduced and loses its color. (google for more: Methylene Blue Reduction Test)

After 15.8 hrs, the samples were still all fully blue (had not depleted O2 yet).

But by 17.9 hours you could see that the highest levels (1/10) of AlgaeFix and Vibrant had lower or slower bacterial growth than the others, which were already mostly de-colorized.

This effect was very tiny, however and within a half hour the highest concentrations of Algaefix and Vibrant had nearly caught up to the others.

(left to right: AlgaeFix 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


(left to right: Vibrant 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


Takeaways:
1) again, Algaefix and Vibrant are weirdly similar - this time on a rate-of-bacterial growth test.
2) 1/10 dilutions of Algaefix and Vibrant delayed rate of bacterial metabolism in richly fed tank water by a small, but detectable and nearly identical amount. There is nothing in the claimed ingredient list of Vibrant that suggests it should delay bacterial growth.
3) the bacterial suppression effect of even a high amount (1/10th dilution) of the polyquat in Algaefix - and whatever is in Vibrant - is really small in saltwater, less than an hour's worth of bacterial growth.
4) It does't seem impossible to keep some spores etc viable in pure AlgaeFix or Vibrant, but that wasn't tested.
5) Concern about the polyquat in algaefix (and perhaps in vibrant) being a risk to saltwater microbiome seems very small.

I wonder what @UWC thinks of all this.