jamie callard
Active Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2016
- Messages
- 379
- Reaction score
- 170
What are your water paramaters testing at both dispaly and qt tank
Ammonia
No2
No3
Ph
Ammonia
No2
No3
Ph
My Tang is Dying!! Help ASAP Please!!!!!
- Thread starter td3025
- Start date
- Tagged users None
About FW dips: They are mostly useful for removing worms (ex. Flukes) and "surface parasites" from fish such as velvet & brook. Ich embeds deeply into a fish's skin (under the epithelium) so a FW dip will probably not dislodge ich trophonts. Whenever I do a FW dip, I use RODI that I aerate beforehand (using either a small powerhead or an air stone), and also temp match the water (using a small heater) to the water the fish is coming from. I don't even worry about the pH, as fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this. After the water has been properly oxygenated and temp matched, remove the air stone & heater and FW dip your fish for no longer than 5 mins.
If you happen to have a "clean" FW aquarium, using that water to FW dip your SW fish is ideal. Provided the temp of that water matches your SW tank; but the water should already be oxygenated.
If you happen to have a "clean" FW aquarium, using that water to FW dip your SW fish is ideal. Provided the temp of that water matches your SW tank; but the water should already be oxygenated.
More detailed info below .....
Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.
How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.
Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.
For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.
Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.
Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.
Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.
How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.
Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.
For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.
Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.
Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.
tigerdragon
Valuable Member
Check for ammonia. Get an ammonia badge for the tank this will help being as there is no lr to help with bacteria break down. Keep lights dim to help with stress, get new saltwater and keep up on wc's. In a hosp tank should not have any lr so you can treat with cupramine if it does that rock will absorb any copper based meds and can't be used anywhere else. Also feed some medicated foods this will help and observe him and watch your dt could pop up there again
The other fish have already been exposed to ich. It sounds like it came in with the clownfish that wasn't quarantined before introduction to the DT. Once the trophonts rupture and the tomites enter the water column, it can take up to several weeks (depending on temperature or water chemistry) for new trophozoites to appear on other fish. It isn't clear how long the tang was in the PT but if it was more than a few days this scenario seems fairly likely.
Anecdotally, there are a number of different treatment methods for ich that have all been highly successful. Hyposalinity is an option, temperature modification is another, as is copper. What is important to remember is that treatment if ich doesn't really involve treatment of the trophozoites visible on the fish since the fish's immune system actually encapsulates the trophozoite in an attempt to combat the attack. Ich treatment is really only effective once those white spots rupture and release the tomites into the water column. Current belief is that those tomites have approximately 48 hours to attach to a new host before dying in the water column, and while they are free swimming they are quite susceptible to UV sterilization (provided proper wattage and dwell time for protozoans) and copper treatment.
The first question is is the tang eating? Will it eat nori and/or meaty foods? If so, it is PROBABLY healthy enough for further treatment. I would treat with cupramine. Begin with a first dose that raises the copper level to .25 ppm. If the fish is still eating well 24 hours later, I would administer a second dose to bring the concentration to .5 ppm. Maintain at this level constantly unless the fish stops eating. If he does storp, wait 24 hours and if still not eating, do some partial water changes to bring the copper level down until he starts eating. However, the concentration must remain at the therapeutic level for 30 days to ensure full eradication. Keep in mind that cupramine can and probbaly will cause some amount of liver damage to the fish, but if this fish is otherwise heathy and eating well it should survive and recover quite well.
Things to keep in mind: Cupramine is ionic copper so use a test kit designed for cupramine such as the Salifert kit. If you use a chelated copper make sure you use a test kit designed for total copper such as the API kit and dose according to the instructions.
You also need to remember that you have a DT that has been exposed to the parasite now as well and will need to do something to treat all those fish.
Anecdotally, there are a number of different treatment methods for ich that have all been highly successful. Hyposalinity is an option, temperature modification is another, as is copper. What is important to remember is that treatment if ich doesn't really involve treatment of the trophozoites visible on the fish since the fish's immune system actually encapsulates the trophozoite in an attempt to combat the attack. Ich treatment is really only effective once those white spots rupture and release the tomites into the water column. Current belief is that those tomites have approximately 48 hours to attach to a new host before dying in the water column, and while they are free swimming they are quite susceptible to UV sterilization (provided proper wattage and dwell time for protozoans) and copper treatment.
The first question is is the tang eating? Will it eat nori and/or meaty foods? If so, it is PROBABLY healthy enough for further treatment. I would treat with cupramine. Begin with a first dose that raises the copper level to .25 ppm. If the fish is still eating well 24 hours later, I would administer a second dose to bring the concentration to .5 ppm. Maintain at this level constantly unless the fish stops eating. If he does storp, wait 24 hours and if still not eating, do some partial water changes to bring the copper level down until he starts eating. However, the concentration must remain at the therapeutic level for 30 days to ensure full eradication. Keep in mind that cupramine can and probbaly will cause some amount of liver damage to the fish, but if this fish is otherwise heathy and eating well it should survive and recover quite well.
Things to keep in mind: Cupramine is ionic copper so use a test kit designed for cupramine such as the Salifert kit. If you use a chelated copper make sure you use a test kit designed for total copper such as the API kit and dose according to the instructions.
You also need to remember that you have a DT that has been exposed to the parasite now as well and will need to do something to treat all those fish.
OP
OP
td3025
Active Member
it is and I have no plans to add any coral or anything of that sort! Over how long of a period of time should I lower the salinity? How gradual should it be if I were to do this?
OP
OP
td3025
Active Member
I'm super afraid to use copper! if I were to though, how long should I wait before starting treatment since my fish is still recovering from the shock it went through during the freshwater dip I did? I believe it ate some nori today. I walked into my room and saw him swimming around the clip of nori and then was startled by me and went back into hiding. His ich has only gotten worse overnight. He is covered in it now.
OP
OP
td3025
Active Member
What's the best brand for the ammonia badge? I've heard mixed reviews on a lot of them regarding their accuracy. I don't have any lr in my qt tank right now but i debated putting some in there. I have an ammonia test kit so I'll do that right now. I did do an ammonia check in my display tank and was at 0 ppm
Coralfornialiving
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2015
- Messages
- 105
- Reaction score
- 19
I had grabbed my buddys blue tang with ich. I had used rid-ich. I pretty much used like 1/4 of the bottle. the blue tang was in a transferable bag , i poured the solution into it. The water was blue lol the fish was swimming crazy then i had some salt water in a cup i used my hand and transferred him to the cup. I then threw the bag away and poured a cup with fresh water, i let him chill in there for about 15 seconds then returned to the salt water cup. I then let it acclimated it and inserted him into my tank. Couple weeks later he was looking phenomenal.
Since you stated you were afraid to use copper, TTM might be the way to go for you: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/
But if you need to QT more than 2 or 3 fish, I would use copper in a larger QT: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/
OP
OP
td3025
Active Member
I'm going the have to treat both my chromis, my clown, and then of course my tang who has been in QT for 2 days now.
The ich got REALLY bad on my tang yesterday, and now is almost nonexistent visibly. Since I don't see the ich on him, should I do a water change in my QT to help rid my QT of the ich? Or will that make no difference?
I'm going to purchase a bigger QT probably and just do the treatment. So scared about copper since i absolutely adore my clown and would be so sad to lose him. but I guess not treating him isn't gonna help either. I think I noticed some spots of ich on my chromis' tails today so I know I need to get on this now
OP
OP
td3025
Active Member
PS So sorry for all the endless questions. I've only dealt with ich in freshwater and I cured it so easily in there. Since this is my first saltwater tank + my first experience with ich in saltwater I just don't want to mess up and harm my fish any more than they must endure
@td3025 No worries, we all have to learn about Marine Ich sometime. 
Doing water changes won't help with the parasites, but will help to improve water quality. If you are worried about copper treatment, look for either Coppersafe or Copper Power (and an API copper test kit). I am starting to believe those brands of chelated copper are actually safer to use than ionic copper i.e. Cupramine.
Doing water changes won't help with the parasites, but will help to improve water quality. If you are worried about copper treatment, look for either Coppersafe or Copper Power (and an API copper test kit). I am starting to believe those brands of chelated copper are actually safer to use than ionic copper i.e. Cupramine.
OP
OP
td3025
Active Member
@td3025 No worries, we all have to learn about Marine Ich sometime.
going to look into those now.
thank you!
Current107
Community Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2015
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 25
Don't go crazy, for one hibbo tangs are known to lay on their side when stressed or scared. I would like to share a story that happen with my hibbo tang.
About 6 months ago I brought home what appears to be an amazing healthy looking hibbo from the LFS. I got him home grabbed 20 gallons from my DT and placed him into a QT. I ran cupramine for approximate 6-7 days to make sure no parasites. At this point everything still looked good. So into the DT he went. Within 24 hours he BLEW (like the 4th of July) up with what appeared to be ick in my DT. I could of swore I seen NO signs of ick in the DT or QT. I haven't seen any ick in my tank for years. So W T H happened? I instantly started feeding little heavy, kept nori on a nori rod and made sure he could eat to his heart desired. I came home from work 24 hours late and notice my hibbo went from having thousands of ick spots to maybe 10-20. I was shocked. Not only did he lose most the spots in 24 hours he looked Great. If I was a betting man I would put him on being dead in 3-4 days. On the 3rd day he was clear of almost ever spot of what appeared to be ick. Now I look back and ask myself, was that really ick? Was the ick doormat within the tissue until I moved him and shocked him enough to break out? Where did the ick come from? Do I believe my own eyes? When this happened I made sure to keep PERFECT parameters. Heat at 77, nitrates below 5, phosphates at 0, ph at 8.15-8.22. Salinity at 1.026. Calk/Alk/Mag on a doser at 440/9.2/1360. If this was ick, then it can be beaten in a DT tank with great water quality and quality feeding/food.
I on another note, I agree if you already pulled him from the DT and in a QT I wouldn't put him back until things looked up. That being said, an emergency QT tank will likely have ammonia spikes and this will stress the fish further causing a relapse or worse death of the fish. I had a cari blue tang that was so bad I had to pull him from a frag system. It was myself and the ammonia that killed the fish. Not the initial cause, ick.
Hope sharing this helps.
About 6 months ago I brought home what appears to be an amazing healthy looking hibbo from the LFS. I got him home grabbed 20 gallons from my DT and placed him into a QT. I ran cupramine for approximate 6-7 days to make sure no parasites. At this point everything still looked good. So into the DT he went. Within 24 hours he BLEW (like the 4th of July) up with what appeared to be ick in my DT. I could of swore I seen NO signs of ick in the DT or QT. I haven't seen any ick in my tank for years. So W T H happened? I instantly started feeding little heavy, kept nori on a nori rod and made sure he could eat to his heart desired. I came home from work 24 hours late and notice my hibbo went from having thousands of ick spots to maybe 10-20. I was shocked. Not only did he lose most the spots in 24 hours he looked Great. If I was a betting man I would put him on being dead in 3-4 days. On the 3rd day he was clear of almost ever spot of what appeared to be ick. Now I look back and ask myself, was that really ick? Was the ick doormat within the tissue until I moved him and shocked him enough to break out? Where did the ick come from? Do I believe my own eyes? When this happened I made sure to keep PERFECT parameters. Heat at 77, nitrates below 5, phosphates at 0, ph at 8.15-8.22. Salinity at 1.026. Calk/Alk/Mag on a doser at 440/9.2/1360. If this was ick, then it can be beaten in a DT tank with great water quality and quality feeding/food.
I on another note, I agree if you already pulled him from the DT and in a QT I wouldn't put him back until things looked up. That being said, an emergency QT tank will likely have ammonia spikes and this will stress the fish further causing a relapse or worse death of the fish. I had a cari blue tang that was so bad I had to pull him from a frag system. It was myself and the ammonia that killed the fish. Not the initial cause, ick.
Hope sharing this helps.
don_chuwish
Smells something fishy
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2012
- Messages
- 3,013
- Reaction score
- 3,389
- Location
- A better place
- What state or country do you live in
- Oregon
Long long ago I was successful with hypo salinity and leaving the DT fallow for 10 weeks. Tank Transfer Method always sounded interesting too though. If the visible ich is off him now that just means one phase of the life cycle is complete. Transfer to a totally fresh & "sterile" tank now would be good. Then immaculately clean the current one with bleach and prepare it for the next transfer. Look it up.
jamie callard
Active Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2016
- Messages
- 379
- Reaction score
- 170
I hate cleaning with bleach, vinger works ok or HP is the best in my opinion
don_chuwish
Smells something fishy
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2012
- Messages
- 3,013
- Reaction score
- 3,389
- Location
- A better place
- What state or country do you live in
- Oregon
Yep, those good too. I suppose even a good scrubbing with hot tap water is pretty deadly to marine ich.
