Mysterious deaths in QT... Now dots? Need some help

[Dr Jimmy]

Long story short, picked up some new fish a couple days ago: red and blue wrasse, melanurus, and flame angel. All were pretty small. I put the new fish through a 2.5 minute freshwater dip, and then into a small QT tank. I do tank transfer with no meds to help get rid of ick and observe for velvet etc. I use water from the display tank that sits at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 ppm nitrate. 78 degrees and 1.025 salinity. I acclimated over 30 minutes and before doing the FW dip.

The melanurus was eating lightly but had died randomly the next morning. He was in the sand at 5:30 in the morning and upside down on the bottom of the tank stiff by 6. I pulled him out and observed for any signs of what could've gone wrong.

I tested the water and got the same 0, 0, 5 but, out of an abundance of caution, got out another, clean, small tank and set it up for new water. I transferred the two fish.

The next morning at 4 am when I was letting the dog out to pee, the flame angel was listing on its side. My heart sank but there wasn't much I could think of to do. It had died by 10. Shortly after, it showed what looked like internal hemorrhage and discoloration around the stomach. It never ate in QT. I offered nori, nyos Gogi, tdo chroma boost, pe pellets, mysis and brine. Some of those soaked in garlic.

I just transferred the remaining red and blue wrasse to yet another clean tank with new display water. I was looking him over carefully and I noticed what look like little white dots. To be clear, he's been eating selcon enriched foods like a pig the whole time. I've seen no flashing like is seen with ick. I'm at a loss here and really hoping for feedback. Prior to this I had only ever lost a Mandarin goby that stopped eating prepared foods. This is over a 3 year period and I'm recently back into the hobby.

I have corals and an anemone growing and happy in the display tank along with a pair of cleaner shrimp, a pair of clownfish and a Tangaroa Goby. They also went through a QT and I've had zero issues in the DT other than a Royal Gramma that killed a cleaner shrimp. That fish was returned to the store.

The store did let me know they treated with PraziPro and keep low levels of copper in their tanks. I'm wondering if it was velvet that was being kept in check by copper and then exploded when I got them here. Would love input. Feeling down from fish dying.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

I got up from typing that message out and he looks so much worse. I'm really a bit panicked. To be clear, these pictures are maybe 30 minutes apart. The one picture is from his first night

 

[Big G]

I'm wondering if it was velvet that was being kept in check by copper and then exploded when I got them here.

Yep. It's a very sad and too common occurrence. The velvet hides deep within the gills unseen doing lots of damage and then boom it spreads tremendously fast overwhelming the fish.
Sorry for your losses.

Emergency treatment for Velvet:

Do a 5 minute freshwater dip. It will remove a large number of the parasites from the gills so the fish can breathe.
Then immediately place the fish into a 60-90 minute bath of Ruby Reef Rally. This step greatly increases the survival rate as RRR has both antiseptic and antibiotic qualities that help prevent serious bacterial infection from the numerous insertion points of the parasites.
Then place the fish into copper or CP. CP is better as it goes directly to therapeutic. AAP has a product called Marex that is a blend of CP.
For copper use a chelated copper for velvet on wrasses. Cupramine does not do as well. Dose the tank to about half way to therapeutic.
While in copper, dose antibiotics. Kanaplex + Furan2 or Spectrogram (easier to dose).

 

[Dr Jimmy]

Yep. It's a very sad and too common occurrence. The velvet hides deep within the gills unseen doing lots of damage and then boom it spreads tremendously fast overwhelming the fish.
Sorry for your losses.

Emergency treatment for Velvet:

Do a 5 minute freshwater dip. It will remove a large number of the parasites from the gills so the fish can breathe.
Then immediately place the fish into a 60-90 minute bath of Ruby Reef Rally. This step greatly increases the survival rate as RRR has both antiseptic and antibiotic qualities that help prevent serious bacterial infection from the numerous insertion points of the parasites.
Then place the fish into copper or CP. CP is better as it goes directly to therapeutic. AAP has a product called Marex that is a blend of CP.
For copper use a chelated copper for velvet on wrasses. Cupramine does not do as well. Dose the tank to about half way to therapeutic.
While in copper, dose antibiotics. Kanaplex + Furan2 or Spectrogram (easier to dose).

Are you thinking it's velvet?

 

[Dr Jimmy]

And knowing that I don't have those meds tonight, should I do a 5 minute freshwater dip?

I should mention I will likely go ahead with the FW dip tonight as the red and blue wrasse looks to be having trouble. This is brutal. Fish after fish.

 

[h2so4hurts]

The white coloration is totally symmetrical, not sure that's velvet, looks like stress coloration. Not a fan of copper and TTM is super hard on fish. I've had much better success with 60mg/gallon Chloroquine and 50% water changes every other day for two weeks followed by observation.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

The white coloration is totally symmetrical, not sure that's velvet, looks like stress coloration. Not a fan of copper and TTM is super hard on fish. I've had much better success with 60mg/gallon Chloroquine and 50% water changes every other day for two weeks followed by observation.

Yes, I have seen a lot of the white coloration go away, but the spots haven't. He's definitely having some trouble but is periodically exploring the tank instead of sitting around the PVC.

 

[Big G]

I know it brutal. Been there. Lost a whole tank of fish years ago to sub-therapeutic copper and velvet, bacterial infections. Awful to watch.

But yes, freshwater dips will buy you some time. It temporarily removes the parasites. Remember the white spots are not the parasites. They are the mucous response from the fish's immune system to the parasites insertion points.

Do you have a ready source for CP or Copper and antibiotics?

 

[Dr Jimmy]

I know it brutal. Been there. Lost a whole tank of fish years ago to sub-therapeutic copper and velvet, bacterial infections. Awful to watch.

But yes, freshwater dips will buy you some time. It temporarily removes the parasites. Remember the white spots are not the parasites. They are the mucous response from the fish's immune system to the parasites insertion points.

Do you have a ready source for CP or Copper and antibiotics?

I have cupramine :\
I also have PraziPro. I just started QTing my fish kind of recently to deal with some ick. I'm so happy now that I do QT. I'm really hoping I can get him to live through tomorrow where copper might be an option. I work from 7:30 to 4 tomorrow so it's pretty rough to find CP or antibiotics.

 

[Big G]

Cupramine is ok on wrasses as long as you slowly increase the copper over 3-5 days. But with velvet you need to move quicker.
The key to Cupramine is to NOT use the directions on the bottle. Its very harsh on the fish to do two big doses. Small doses spread out over the next 2-3 days to get to therapeutic is much easier on the fish and allows you to watch for copper sensitivity.
Calculate how many drop of Cupramine are needed to get to therapeutic depending on the size of your QT. Remember to allow for the filter and tanks are very seldom true to size. Use an online tank size calculator. Then spread out the drops needed doing some in the AM, lunch, PM.
Have a good filtration system going in the QT to insure water quality.
A HOB filter with a foam filter and add a mesh bag of Seachem Matrix or Fluval BioMax.
A foam bubble filter.
Soak all of the foam filters and matrix/Biomax in Something like Biospira. Then pour the biospira into the QT.
Run a small powerhead aimed up at the surface so it's actively rippling the water's surface.
Doing the above will help keep ammonia in check.
Add a Seachem Ammonia Alert badge to the QT. Best to view the badge from "behind" with a flashlight to see the colors on the wheel.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

Hoping for a quick response. He doesn't seem happy with the powerhead on. Should I set up a new tank with all clean surfaces? I keep bioballs in my sump to help with this circumstance. Or should I add cupramine to the current tank? Should I fresh water dip tonight before either tank? New pictures of the fish. Doesn't seem too bad. Going to try to feed him before anything else

 

[h2so4hurts]

Send spectrum an email, they will sell ick shield (50g bottle of Chloroquine) directly to you since a bunch of morons bought out all the stock thinking it cures COVID-19.

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[Big G]

If you have to, aim the powerhead almost straight up so to continue aerating the tank. If you add Cupramine to the existing tank it will kill any of the free swimming parasites pretty quickly. But any encysted parasites that are on the glass, equipment, rocks/sand will continue to hatch and try to make way to your fish.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

If you have to, aim the powerhead almost straight up so to continue aerating the tank. If you add Cupramine to the existing tank it will kill any of the free swimming parasites pretty quickly. But any encysted parasites that are on the glass, equipment, rocks/sand will continue to hatch and try to make way to your fish.

I'm having to do new water anyway. I used a small amount of water conditioner as a safe guard against bleach with the quick turn around between fish dying. Let's just say panic button was hit. I wasn't ready for velvet to light up what looked like healthy fish. That low level copper must do the trick

 

[Dr Jimmy]

Through the FW dip, new tank, about 1/6th dosed for the total copper cupramine thinks is needed over the total doses combined. He was pretty mad. Even jumped while I was dosing copper. Unfortunately for him, he literally landed in the net that was laying there.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

He's still alive this morning. I put a couple little mysis in and he watched them go by and took a couple hits like he was going to eat them though I'm not sure that happened (it didn't while I was watching but I'm going back and forth between work meetings). He wasn't at all interested in food yesterday afternoon/evening so maybe this is a good sign. He's found an area in the outside corner of PVC that the flow is pretty small to call home. Which is nice because he's observable. Will be adding a little copper throughout the day.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

He's reasonably responsive to my presence. Definitely watching me intentionally (who wouldn't after what I've put him through). He's now moved into the PVC as well. Wondering if I should keep low level cupramine and then dose copper power instead. I have the salifert copper test but I'm worried about over dosing. Or do I order the hanna copper checker??

 

[Big G]

The Hanna HL Copper Checker is awesome. It lowers your stress and the fish's by avoiding under/over dosing. Highly recommend. Get extra reagent packages!
Chelated coppers like Copper Power or Coppersafe are generally perceived as being easier on wrasses.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

The Hanna HL Copper Checker is awesome. It lowers your stress and the fish's by avoiding under/over dosing. Highly recommend. Get extra reagent packages!
Chelated coppers like Copper Power or Coppersafe are generally perceived as being easier on wrasses.

So, seeking a recommendation (this is my first time treating with copper). How does this plan sound?
1) get wrasse into 1/2 strength copper with cupramine while Copper Power shows up
2) Order Hanna Copper Checker (Copper Power will be here Tuesday)
3) Order Ruby Reef Rally - won't be here for 3-5 days

4) swap wrasse into Copper Power at half strength after getting it setup
5) continue dosing to therapeutic verifying with Hannah checker

 

[Dr Jimmy]

I do note that I don't have an antibiotic in there. How important is that? I am hoping to complete my tank stocking over the next 2-3 months (which would have a melanurus, flame angel, midas blenny as pretty much it).

He did take 2of 3 pieces of Nyos Goji berries... so he seems to be back to being interested in eating. He's still not swimming around the tank but maybe in time.