Mysterious Deaths that don't really make sense

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

So, I'll try and give as much information as I can, if you want any numbers rechecked please let me know. So, I started up my tank three weeks ago today with two clownfish, and after 4 days with them and stable numbers I added 1 hermit crab 1 cleaner shrimp and 4 Nassarius Snails. Everything seemed fine, numbers still looked good. I think about a week ago (maybe a little less) one of the Nassarius snails was found dead. I took him out and disposed of him. at the two week mark I added a coral beauty angelfish. numbers still held stable, but now, My Shrimp is missing (although the thread specifically about him we determined he was probably moulting. stay tuned for if he pops back up). and today at feeding time I watched one of the nassarius snails just pop himself right out of his shell for no reason. Its been a few hours and he seems to have died, leaving him alone though, if he's gone in the morning I will assume he did die and the rest of my CUC ate him. right now he is completely motionless even with pellets placed directly in front of him. my other 4 snails (2 trochus 2 turbo) seem fine, happily scooting around eating algae. my numbers last Saturday were as follows: SG 1.024, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 30, KH 12, Calcium 400, Phosphate < 0.25 >0, pH 8.0-7.9, and when I thought the shrimp died yesterday I rechecked salinity, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, and got SG 1.022, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 30. anyone got any idea why the Nassarius snails and only the Nassarius snails would be dying? do you think the shrimp is dead too? could something target that group specifically?

Tamberav · Oct 31, 2020

Why the drop in salinity? What do you test it with?

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

Tamberav said:
Why the drop in salinity? What do you test it with?

I have no clue, I am guessing because I had done a water change on Saturday a few hours before taking the reading it may have been falsely high since I did the change with water that was at 1.026 (yes, I am aware 1.024 is still low, see build thread for reasoning, just suffice to say I started at 1.022 and am planning to slowly raise it over the next few months). I use a refractometer that I calibrate to 35ppt with calibration solution before every reading so I have confidence that those numbers are at least relatively accurate.

Edit: to clarify, my suspicion is that the water was always 1.022 but since the water change was fairly recent for the reading on the salinity the water hadn't completely mixed and the water I got was from a pocket of higher salinity

Pkunk35 · Oct 31, 2020

Sorry to hear!
The fluctuating salinity sounds suspect. Inverts are super sensitive to specific gravity changes, much more so than fish. If molting I’m sure this is a problem or does not help a invert grow a shell or molt one.

KH sounds a bit high too esp for that calcium level.

I’ve had freshwater Caradina shrimp that would live and eat just fine for a weeks and then all die at the same time from molting because of water tds levels (or at least so I think), so I suspect that saltwater organisms are similarity sensitive to tds, salinity, hardness when growing shell or molting. Not sure if this is your problem but I would try to keep params stable starting with salinity before adding new inverts.

Do you have a ATO?

ichthyogeek · Oct 31, 2020

How often are you doing water changes? What are you feeding to the tank? I'm always suspicious about food causing issues, especially since your more carnivorous CUC is dying.

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

Pkunk35 said:
Sorry to hear!
The fluctuating salinity sounds suspect. Inverts are super sensitive to specific gravity changes, much more so than fish. If molting I’m sure this is a problem or does not help a invert grow a shell or molt one.

KH sounds a bit high too esp for that calcium level.

I’ve had freshwater Caradina shrimp that would live and eat just fine for a weeks and then all die at the same time from molting because of water tds levels (or at least so I think), so I suspect that saltwater organisms are similarity sensitive to tds, salinity, hardness when growing shell or molting. Not sure if this is your problem but I would try to keep params stable starting with salinity before adding new inverts.

Do you have a ATO?

I do not have an ATO, but my top is glass, I have never seen the water level fall a measurable amount. Also, the salinity went down not up. as far as the shrimp goes, based on what I found, he is either currently hiding because he just molted, or the CBA killed and ate him, I don't think the shrimp in particular is related to water problems. the first snail died before the salinity change too. like I said, my tank has been at 1.022 since I started it, I only have the one reading of 1.024 and that was right after a 25% water change with 1.026 water to try and cause it to climb slightly. by my math it should have only raised it to 1.023-ish. The KH is a bit high, I'm bringing it down with water changes. I got bad advice when starting up my tank. and I'm also kind of suspicious because I have 2 trochus 2 turbos and a hermit crab that are completely fine...

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

ichthyogeek said:
How often are you doing water changes? What are you feeding to the tank? I'm always suspicious about food causing issues, especially since your more carnivorous CUC is dying.

My plan for water changes was every other week on a schedule, and then more as dictated by parameters (ex: if there's a spike in A/N/N or a sudden jump in phosphorus, I'd change it immediately, that kind of thing). I have been feeding an assortment of SF bay frozen food that has some different kinds of shrimp and other meaty foods. at least once a week I am using the block that has a lot of algae mixed in for both the algae snails and I was told the CBA also is omnivorous... basically everyone in the tank goes nuts for everything I put in. I also use pellets on occasion but never by themselves, always with the frozen food (about 1-2 times per week I give less frozen and throw in a few pinches of pellets)

Edit: I suppose worth mentioning, the water I use for my water changes is RODI mixed with instant ocean salt to 1.026, the plan there being that it would raise the salinity to within margin of error of 1.026 in 8 changes, so 4-6 months total, and that's about the time I think I'll be ready to add non-fish/CUC members to the tank like coral and anemones. I want practice in the fish only tank before starting with corals and such.

Pkunk35 · Oct 31, 2020

Nasabeau said:
I do not have an ATO, but my top is glass, I have never seen the water level fall a measurable amount. Also, the salinity went down not up. as far as the shrimp goes, based on what I found, he is either currently hiding because he just molted, or the CBA killed and ate him, I don't think the shrimp in particular is related to water problems. the first snail died before the salinity change too. like I said, my tank has been at 1.022 since I started it, I only have the one reading of 1.024 and that was right after a 25% water change with 1.026 water to try and cause it to climb slightly. by my math it should have only raised it to 1.023-ish. The KH is a bit high, I'm bringing it down with water changes. I got bad advice when starting up my tank. and I'm also kind of suspicious because I have 2 trochus 2 turbos and a hermit crab that are completely fine...

Totally feel you and agree that glass top will mitigate a lot of evap. I ran tanks for over ten years with no ATO and hand pouring RO for makeup. Salinity changes the entire concentration of everything in the water, so kH, calcium, mg, etc. small fluctuations are huge for inverts especially those molting. I really think a ATO is necessary in saltwater even in a glass top tank and could help explain a death or two such as you are having with inverts (but not all inverts). This really did help me more than anything else I did gear-wise in reefing (using an ATO).

Other than that, I would run carbon or poly filter
To remove any weird toxins, spot feed occasionally to ensure nutrition to the carnivorous mouths. Just not much else we can do for them. GL, man

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

Pkunk35 said:
Totally feel you and agree that glass top will mitigate a lot of evap. I ran tanks for over ten years with no ATO and hand pouring RO for makeup. Salinity changes the entire concentration of everything in the water, so kH, calcium, mg, etc. small fluctuations are huge for inverts especially those molting. I really think a ATO is necessary in saltwater even in a glass top tank and could help explain a death or two such as you are having with inverts (but not all inverts). This really did help me more than anything else I did gear-wise in reefing (using an ATO).

Other than that, I would run carbon or poly filter
To remove any weird toxins, spot feed occasionally to ensure nutrition to the carnivorous mouths. Just not much else we can do for them. GL, man

I don't understand, Maybe I have bad info, but I thought ATOs just added RODI to replace evap, and wouldn't help with salinity drops, just spikes? like I said, I have no evidence that the shrimp is actually dead I just found what was either remaining parts of a picked over molt or body parts of an eaten shrimp, so not really sure on that.

I currently run a canister that has Carbon pads, Nitrate and Phosphate sponges, and then has bio balls, ceramic rings, and floss, not sure what to add there. I will definitely start spot feeding the Nassarius snails though to make sure they're actually getting food

Kris 2020 · Oct 31, 2020

It’s probably related to the well water you used to start up the tank. Ground water contains all kinds of things, and normal drinking water tests are not going to find all the things that could affect invertebrates. It could also be causing high trace elements when mixed with your salt. You may want to do an ICP test to see what you are actually dealing with rather than guessing.

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

Kris 2020 said:
It’s probably related to the well water you used to start up the tank. Ground water contains all kinds of things, and normal drinking water tests are not going to find all the things that could affect invertebrates. It could also be causing high trace elements when mixed with your salt. You may want to do an ICP test to see what you are actually dealing with rather than guessing.

I'm guessing not, since it took almost three weeks and is only effecting one species of invert out of the handful I have. I also don't know why you'd say normal drinking water tests are not going to find everything, then go on to recommend the exact type of test we used to test the well, but I don't think I'm going to do it again. If an ICP is what is commonly used for aquariums, then hey, I lucked out, because that's exactly what I did.

Kris 2020 · Oct 31, 2020

Nasabeau said:
I'm guessing not, since it took almost three weeks and is only effecting one species of invert out of the handful I have. I also don't know why you'd say normal drinking water tests are not going to find everything, then go on to recommend the exact type of test we used to test the well, but I don't think I'm going to do it again. If an ICP is what is commonly used for aquariums, then hey, I lucked out, because that's exactly what I did.

I work in local public health as an environmental health specialist. My office permits drinking water wells so I am quite familiar with testing and ground water contamination. PFAS, uranium, radium, are among a few things that aren’t routinely tested for. I personally would never use tap water from a well without rodi filtration and a zero TDS reading in a reef tank, which I have 15 years of experience keeping.

Good luck, I hope you get the answer you want.

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

Kris 2020 said:
I work in local public health as an environmental health specialist. My office permits drinking water wells so I am quite familiar with testing and ground water contamination. PFAS, uranium, radium, are among a few things that aren’t routinely tested for. I personally would never use tap water from a well without rodi filtration and a zero TDS reading in a reef tank, which I have 15 years of experience keeping.

Good luck, I hope you get the answer you want.

We didn't get our water tested by the public health office (DHEC where I am), when we bought the property the well was already permitted. we had it tested about a year ago by a company that does IPC testing. The report we got included Radium and Uranium, I don't remember if it had PFAS, but honestly don't want to dig it back out again. I'm not trying to be rude, and I appreciate the input, I just have serious doubts that there's anything in the water killing the animals, 1 because I have reasonable confidence there isn't anything funky in the water, and 2 because if there was, it wouldn't be hurting just one species of inverts, it would be hurting them all and probably the fish too. I really don't want to pay another hundred bucks to get my aquarium water tested, especially since there is literally nothing I can do about it beyond what I'm already doing that doesn't risk nuking the tank (ie, 90%+ water change)

Kris 2020 · Oct 31, 2020

Nasabeau said:
We didn't get our water tested by the public health office (DHEC where I am), when we bought the property the well was already permitted. we had it tested about a year ago by a company that does IPC testing. The report we got included Radium and Uranium, I don't remember if it had PFAS, but honestly don't want to dig it back out again. I'm not trying to be rude, and I appreciate the input, I just have serious doubts that there's anything in the water killing the animals, 1 because I have reasonable confidence there isn't anything funky in the water, and 2 because if there was, it wouldn't be hurting just one species of inverts, it would be hurting them all and probably the fish too. I really don't want to pay another hundred bucks to get my aquarium water tested, especially since there is literally nothing I can do about it beyond what I'm already doing that doesn't risk nuking the tank (ie, 90%+ water change)

You got good water testing then, I’ll gladly eat my words. Unless you pay out the nose around here you only get the basics with public labs. Inverts as a whole tend to be pretty sensitive, you’re not getting any big ph or temp swings from day to night?

Nasabeau · Oct 31, 2020

Kris 2020 said:
You got good water testing then, I’ll gladly eat my words. Unless you pay out the nose around here you only get the basics with public labs. Inverts as a whole tend to be pretty sensitive, you’re not getting any big ph or temp swings from day to night?

I'm not getting any noticable temp swings from day to night. as far as pH while I cannot be positive because I don't have continuous monitoring, when I test at night and in the morning there seems to be about .1ph difference

Nasabeau · Nov 1, 2020

so update: the snail that randomly popped out of his shell is in fact still alive... I have no idea how... I don't understand what is going on with it... but its been 48 hours so far, and the thing is currently climbing up the glass...