Mysterious Fish Death while TTM

[xruss]

Hey Guys!

Recently i bought 3 wrasses(various cirrhilabrus sp.) and 1 paracanthurus hepatus.

I had them half way trough the TTM process, it was in the 3rd Bucked, just one day before the 2nd praziquantel dosing in the 4th bucket.

I did many TTM processes in the last months and nothing went out like this!

In the morning at 07:30 i looked after them, they were fine, swimming arround and i feed them a little bit with flake food, they where also eating, like it was with every other fish that has gone trough TTM.
Then, at 12:30 i looked again, what are my little friends doiiiiiiin... what the heck the wrasses are lying around all dead! Only the hepatus survived! I run and made a new bucket and switched the hepatus over.
On the next morning, the hepatus was swimming around, i fed him with flakes and he ate, then i came home at around 15:00 and guess what, he also was dead.

The fish skin was just fine, no inflated belly, or something else.
Temperature in the Bucket always was normal at ~25°C
Salinity also, between 32-35ppm.
Water that was used, was from the DT.
I meassured absolutely no ammonia concentration in the bucket water.
I feed the DT also with this Flake food, so the flake food should not killed them.

Only thing i had done other, compared to the other TTM processes i made:
I used some plastic rocks for hiding places for the tiny wrasses.
After the first praziquantel dosing, the water smelled really fishy, but not like it would smell with ammonia in it, also there was no ammonia in the water.

So could it be that the plastic rocks are just gave something into the water that killed the fishes?
The rocks were marked with "saltwater compatible" and it was the first time i used them.
What about that fishy smell?

I'am really sad about this loss..
Hope for some ideas about this!

 

[4FordFamily]

Trust me there is ammonia in a bucket with three wrasses during ttm. Prime is your friend. Sorry for your losses. How are you getting the fish oxygen, also?

A power head or something needs to move water to aerate the water. A bubbler may also work

 

[Humblefish]

Two possibilities I can think of:

1) Assuming it wasn't ammonia, then possibly a toxin got into the water. Any household cleaners, insecticides, etc. used recently around the buckets or where you store your water?

2) A fast killing disease, such as velvet, wiped them all out. TTM only treats ich, and in a bucket it is hard to see if the fish are displaying symptoms of some other disease. Also with velvet, key behavioral symptoms will often prelude visible ones (if these even manifest at all.) A fish with velvet may breathe heavy, seek relief by swimming into the flow of a powerhead and act reclusive (velvet makes them sensitive to light).

 

[xruss]

I already used a bunch of 5 galon buckets for the ttm with my siganus virgatus with 4,5" and my thallasoma lunare with 5,5".
No ammonia was ever read in that process.
Same goes for my niger and melichthys trigger.

This time these 3 wrasses were about 2-2.5" long and the hepatus was just 1.2" long.

I aerate the Bucket with 1 airstone for 24h a day, low or moderate airflow, depending on the fish.

I also gone with 2 mandarin dragonets, 1 halichoeres chrysus and 2 Amblygobius Phalaena in exact the same way through the TTM process.
So... this is why i dont get it.
I think it has to do something with the plastic rocks..

 

[xruss]

I watched them very closely and i did a good look at them when i put them in a the new bucket, not one single white spot i have seen.

No toxin or something similar where in the near. I also tought myself this way and take a good look around.

 

[4FordFamily]

IMO your ammonia test is whack. Fish crap, it's what they do. In a tiny 5 gallon bucket it becomes toxic quick. The other fish you've ran ttm on may be more tolerant of ammonia. It's definitely what killed my fish in TTM and I had them in a 46 gallon rubbermaid.

You need an ammonia badge. And ditch whatever kit you have. It's just simple science, in a bucket that isn't cycled (and has no way to be), ammonia will build quickly.

Sorry if I am being too direct, I just want you to have better success in the future.

 

[4FordFamily]

The only way the plastic rocks were involved is if you kept the water level the same, despite the displacement of the rocks perhaps, IMO. Thus, ammonia built up faster with less water volume.

 

[xruss]

Its no Problem, i'am Happy that you are responding!

But, did you read that i have used old tankwater from the DT?
I also forgott, i putt in every Bucket a bunch of Algae (Chaetomorpha+Delesseria) this helped me ALOT on ammonia in the past.

I am not saying that my ammonia test is the best, but i had already the possibility of test his "ok", or "not ok" values, thanks to my triggers and Surgeonfishes. But i will go and buy some badges, as you said and look better at this!

 

[xruss]

The rocks are hollow with many holes and hiding spaces. i bought 2 of them, for every bucket 1 rock in the TTM process +time to dry.
So the time the fishes died, i had the rock in the bucket that was in use while the first use of praziquantel, could the plastic absorbed something from the praziquantel, or something similar?

 

[4FordFamily]

Your biological filtration is in your substrate, rock, media, sponges, etc. -- not in the water column. As such cycled water will provide little if any benefit to cycle a bucket. Any bacteria that were in the water added to the bucket have nowhere to colonize.

 

[4FordFamily]

The rocks are hollow with many holes and hiding spaces. i bought 2 of them, for every bucket 1 rock in the TTM process +time to dry.
So the time the fishes died, i had the rock in the bucket that was in use while the first use of praziquantel, could the plastic absorbed something from the praziquantel, or something similar?

Not sure. Maybe someone else will be more useful here. I rather doubt it was the culprit however.

 

[xruss]

Yeah... really hard to tell what the real problem was..

next time i will try without that rocks and see if it will be better again :7

 

[4FordFamily]

Yeah... really hard to tell what the real problem was..

next time i will try without that rocks and see if it will be better again :7

I would add prime to combat ammonia and perhaps only keep them for 2 days in a bucket to minimize ammonia accumulation. I think you'll find better success.

 

[Humblefish]

I agree with @3FordFamily that ammonia would likely build up in just a 5 gal bucket with that bio-load. It seems in 3 days time, you would have to use Prime or some other ammonia reducer to control it.

As far as it being the plastic rocks, that's possible if a dye was used that then broke down and leached into the water. Or it's possible praziquantel caused a negative interaction with the dye. Did you clean the plastic rocks before you used them? I recently lost a PBT in QT because (I think) I didn't rinse a powerhead I had just gotten in the mail. It's possible a toxin got to it just sitting on the shelf or while in transit.

Moving forward, I would just use PVC elbows for hiding spots while doing TTM. That has always worked well for me.

 

[xruss]

well, ive got an question about the seachem ammonia badge!

Can i use it for ttm?

for example:
tank#1 badge#1
tank#2 badge#2 - let badge#1 dry
tank#3 badge#1 - let badge#2 dry
etc.

is this possible?
or better get an ammonia test?
which ammonia test would you recommend?

 

[4FordFamily]

well, ive got an question about the seachem ammonia badge!

Can i use it for ttm?

for example:
tank#1 badge#1
tank#2 badge#2 - let badge#1 dry
tank#3 badge#1 - let badge#2 dry
etc.

is this possible?
or better get an ammonia test?
which ammonia test would you recommend?

Yeah I don't see why not it adjusts within 30 seconds in my experience. As long as it's cleaned in fresh water and then let to dry

 

[xruss]

Ok! very nice, thanks! I thought, that these badges would loose function after getting dry, and i found no answers on google.. now ordering some of them instantly!

thanks for your help guys!

btw. i throwed that plastic rocks into ro/di water and guess what.. the ro/di water has now some nice colour...
PVC elbows, are clearly the best, nothing more to add.

 

[Humblefish]

Just to add to what @3FordFamily said, rinse the badges off using RODI so they don't come into contact with chlorine/chloramines. Also wouldn't be a bad idea to dry them using a fan to ensure they are completely dry. There is no margin for error when doing TTM.