Mysterious fish loss

[Wildreefs]

my tank has been going rather well except for the past week. I lost two fish, and wondering if it’s my system, or the fish themselves not being hardy.

One was a copper band butterfly. Had about 3 weeks. Are first two days, then stopped until I saw it swimming upside down, nose up in air etc.

Second was a captive bred court jester goby. Had it two weeks, hid the whole time until he was dead on the same. Not sure he ever ate .

Are these fish perhaps not hardy and poor judgement to use as to weather there is something wrong with tank?

 

[LiveWire]

Have you checked your parameters lately and if so what are your readings?

 

[Hemmdog]

Did you fw dip and qt the fish?

 

[Wildreefs]

15 other fish are fine. They are all in copper , have been for about two months. Prazi twice as well.

It’s just these two fish, which I think are hard to keep in general . The Cbb I know for sure is difficult, not sure about court jester

 

[Mjrenz]

15 other fish are fine. They are all in copper , have been for about two months. Prazi twice as well.

It’s just these two fish, which I think are hard to keep in general . The Cbb I know for sure is difficult, not sure about court jester

If they've been in copper for 2 months you should get them out of it, copper is a poison and the only reason it's effective is because fish can tolerate it longer than the parasites it kills. 30 days is all that's needed.

Have you done a freshwater dip on any of the fish to confirm that flukes aren't present? Even though you did two rounds of prazi there are flukes now that are resistant to it

 

[Wildreefs]

Please close thread. 3 posts and no one can answer my question pertaining to the hardiness of the aforementioned fish.

No visible disease, in treatment for long time, other fish are beyond fine .

Thanks modz, please close

 

[Mjrenz]

Please close thread. 3 posts and no one can answer my question pertaining to the hardiness of the aforementioned fish.

No visible disease, in treatment for long time, other fish are beyond fine .

Thanks modz, please close

Ummm, ok, we're just trying to help

 

[Wildreefs]

Ummm, ok, we're just trying to help

I understand but I now see why lfs are weary, and hobbyist in general of message boards. F

Facts are far and few between. For instance, you told me , or insinuated two months of copper is too long. Most restaurants , hotels, fowlrs, run copper all the time, year round. To say 2 months of too long is simply not true. Lfs who use cooper round the clock have some fish upwards of 6 months to a year in copper.

It’s just not true. Just like the other day I posted using copper on my display, removing from corals, and some spit out the old fable of once rock is in copper it is no good. A lot misinformation out there leads to a lot of wrong turns and wasted efforts.

All I asked was , my fish are all doing fine, exception of copper band and a rainford goby who died . Wanted to see if these fish, particularly the goby, are just hit or miss to keep and all is perfect.

Instead of answering that, I got everyone from freshwater dips and copper too long, to do I ever feed the fish and are they wet in water.

I bleached my tank over the winter to rid my tank of uro. Only to find out it exists in almost every tank, and is curable by a formalin, which kills fish anyway, so there really isn’t a cure. I was duped into velvet metro would work, and even after running it longer than advised, with slightly higher dosage, still saw uro.

Good thing I ran my “poisonous” copper higher at 2.0 vs 1.75.

Just two months ago 1.75 was the gold standard on here, until it wasn’t and velvet survived.

Not arguing, just looking to find agreance that maybe, collectively, we don’t know as much as we pretend we do.

Facts or starting points are needed for a treatment or theory. So far, we don’t know if copper kills the free swimmers to and from the fish, or just to the fish after hatching. We don’t know if ich can survive 30 days, 76 days if kept and Arctic temp water, or possibly more. We also don’t know if metro actually kills anything.

I know uro it doesn’t , and I’m also torn on internal parasite. I’ve had a wrasse for a month now, eating metro and prazi (general cure) bound to their food twice a day, and he’s still showing the classic signs fin internal parasites .

Again, not faulting or arguing with you. Just like most, I’m sure you read it in here as gold,and pass it along like many do, but some of it is fiction , or at the very least, not efficient.

 

[Mjrenz]

I understand but I now see why lfs are weary, and hobbyist in general of message boards. F

Facts are far and few between. For instance, you told me , or insinuated two months of copper is too long. Most restaurants , hotels, fowlrs, run copper all the time, year round. To say 2 months of too long is simply not true. Lfs who use cooper round the clock have some fish upwards of 6 months to a year in copper.

It’s just not true. Just like the other day I posted using copper on my display, removing from corals, and some spit out the old fable of once rock is in copper it is no good. A lot misinformation out there leads to a lot of wrong turns and wasted efforts.

All I asked was , my fish are all doing fine, exception of copper band and a rainford goby who died . Wanted to see if these fish, particularly the goby, are just hit or miss to keep and all is perfect.

Instead of answering that, I got everyone from freshwater dips and copper too long, to do I ever feed the fish and are they wet in water.

I bleached my tank over the winter to rid my tank of uro. Only to find out it exists in almost every tank, and is curable by a formalin, which kills fish anyway, so there really isn’t a cure. I was duped into velvet metro would work, and even after running it longer than advised, with slightly higher dosage, still saw uro.

Good thing I ran my “poisonous” copper higher at 2.0 vs 1.75.

Just two months ago 1.75 was the gold standard on here, until it wasn’t and velvet survived.

Not arguing, just looking to find agreance that maybe, collectively, we don’t know as much as we pretend we do.

Facts or starting points are needed for a treatment or theory. So far, we don’t know if copper kills the free swimmers to and from the fish, or just to the fish after hatching. We don’t know if ich can survive 30 days, 76 days if kept and Arctic temp water, or possibly more. We also don’t know if metro actually kills anything.

I know uro it doesn’t , and I’m also torn on internal parasite. I’ve had a wrasse for a month now, eating metro and prazi (general cure) bound to their food twice a day, and he’s still showing the classic signs fin internal parasites .

Again, not faulting or arguing with you. Just like most, I’m sure you read it in here as gold,and pass it along like many do, but some of it is fiction , or at the very least, not efficient.

I wish I could hand you a silver bullet to take care of all the diseases but the fact is nobody can. Just like with human diseases there's likely never going to be a full understanding of them all (not in our lifetime anyways). Just like with irresponsible use of antibiotics allowing mutated strains of bacteria to survive and evolve, the parasites we deal with are evolving due to survival from the use of sub therapeutic levels of medications like copper and prazi. We're always learning new things about these diseases and I'm glad there is a place like r2r where we can share and learn from each others successes and failures

 

[Wildreefs]

I understand and completely agree with you, there are complex issues and it’s great to have a place to dissect and compare.

My issue is how things are written and perceived.

Saying metro in some cases eliminates uro, have to wait and see, need a microscope to check, difficult to tell etc, is much different than saying :

“To kill metro, use metro 125mg per 10 gallons for 10 days”.

One sounds concrete, scientific (latter) , the other sounds cautious, loosely based, which is exactly what it represents.

Like me going to a mechanic: I have an issue, my engine light is blinking

Mechanic says, oh that’s easy, had this before once, add 2 quarts motor oil. I add oil, drive, and car blows up 100 milestone later

That’s sucks.

Better way..same scenario, mechanic says, not sure, you can try two quarts of oil, if problem persists, light doesn’t go off,
Bring it in, there is something wrong.

One scenario treats it black and white, the other acknowledges they may or may not know what to do.

 

[JenniferMcK]

It's always a gamble with buying fish. You never know what's going to happen. You can have a bullet proof method of doing quarantine and then something goes awry. In defense of the previous posters, your original post didn't specify that your fish were in copper so that's why you got the responses you did. With that being said, the question copper usage time frame frames depends on what the copper ppm is. Most lfs run low dosage copper so that's why fish can survive longer. Running at therapeutic levels for an extended amount of time is risking the fishes health. 30 days is the general amount of time to damage and kill all stages of ick to where you can remove copper from the tank and have no reinfestation, as long as copper was kept above therapeutic levels at all times and no new additions, possibly infected water, and or equipment were added at anytime during the 30 days.
As for uronema, like all other marine fish diseases there are different strains and levels of infestations. So one fish may be cured of uro with metro and one fish may need CP. But then again not all fish can handle cp so it's again a gamble with fish and uro. Best thing is to do anything to help the fishes immune system and treat accordingly as best as possible.
As for more some fish being more hardy than others, that most definitely comes into play. Cbb is a very tedious fish that doesn't ship well and is hard to get eating after being placed in qt. Hence why it's stamped a difficult fish. As for the goby I'm not sure about that one. But somethings come into play here... Did you raise copper over a few days or drop right into therapeutic? Did the fish have any signs of infection? Was the fish eating well for any amount of time while you had it? What all did you dose into the tank with these fish? And how big was the tank and what other fish were in there? Etc...
Personally I can say that I have had fish that are supposed to handle copper very well get sick in copper that I've had to pull to save it. Ex I bought 5 storm clowns. 4 are taking copper very well, 1 was not. It stopped eating and was staying on the bottom of the tank for 3 days. I pulled it from copper and started GC and ttm and it started eating again and is doing very well. It pooped alot of stringy white poop as well after the GC dose. So I can't really say if it was copper or it having worms that was making act that way.
Also I have had fish that were treated with GC soaked food and GC in the water that still showed signs of worms and or flukes so I had to use fenbendazole. So I absolutely believe that some parasites and infections are becoming somewhat resistant to certain meds.
Imo I would only run a fish through 30 days of copper at most and then run any meds after that were needed. And then only run copper again if ick signs showed up again. And if it did I would start questioning whether or not I inadvertently messed up the treatment with any addition of infection water equipment fish etc or if another tank was too close to qt and so on so forth. The clock restarts with any new fish addition or infected water addition while in copper which is why I never add new fish to existing fish in qt and I always use sterile water and equipment.
I hope some of this helps. Good luck to you

 

[cancun]

my tank has been going rather well except for the past week. I lost two fish, and wondering if it’s my system, or the fish themselves not being hardy.

One was a copper band butterfly. Had about 3 weeks. Are first two days, then stopped until I saw it swimming upside down, nose up in air etc.

Second was a captive bred court jester goby. Had it two weeks, hid the whole time until he was dead on the same. Not sure he ever ate .

Are these fish perhaps not hardy and poor judgement to use as to weather there is something wrong with tank?

Hi! I read through your post, and I know the question about the hardiness of the CBB you already know. As far as the court jester goby.....I was at my trusted LFS and was talking to the owner and he told me they have been hit or miss as far as hardiness goes the last year or so, even the captive bred ones. He said some do well and others die for no apparent reason or due to disease. He also mentioned that they have been reluctant to start eatting also, compared to other gobies. There appears to not be a reason eaither. Just a note I don't have any gobies in my system, but your post intrigued me, so I wanted to try and get some kind of answer for you. Hope things work out for you! [emoji16]

 

[MnFish1]

my tank has been going rather well except for the past week. I lost two fish, and wondering if it’s my system, or the fish themselves not being hardy.

One was a copper band butterfly. Had about 3 weeks. Are first two days, then stopped until I saw it swimming upside down, nose up in air etc.

Second was a captive bred court jester goby. Had it two weeks, hid the whole time until he was dead on the same. Not sure he ever ate .

Are these fish perhaps not hardy and poor judgement to use as to weather there is something wrong with tank?

Those fish are hardy (to me) - There is an answer to your question. Here is a chart - depending on the type of copper you're using - that may have affected your copper band. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/

Im not sure why you were a little (it seemed) angry about the person that mentioned copper - you actually DID ask the question - could something be wrong with my tank - right....? IMHO - you should not use copper continuously - and most LFS etc do not do it. If some do - IMHO - they are wrong. So - that is also an answer to 'your question'. IMHO that is a problem with your tank.

 

[Salty Lemon]

I understand but I now see why lfs are weary, and hobbyist in general of message boards. F

Please close thread. 3 posts and no one can answer my question pertaining to the hardiness of the aforementioned fish.

No visible disease, in treatment for long time, other fish are beyond fine .

Thanks modz, please close

1. As far as hardiness goes, before buying a fish, I like to look here. It isn't 100% accurate, but it gives me an idea of what I might be getting myself into. I generally research what I'm getting into before I buy it. https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+2124+164&pcatid=164, https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+2971+212&pcatid=212
2. When you go to the doctor; you know they are going to look down your throat and check your heartbeat -- the same goes for fish health diagnosis. The same questions are asked at the beginning each time. The members were being nothing but kind and trying to get to the bottom of what could be your problem. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. This is a forum that is designed to help people. You gave the members barely over an hour to get to the bottom of your problem when out of frustration you asked this thread to be taken down when you didn't like what you were hearing.
3. Whether it be religion, child rearing, politics or reef keeping, we all have our own ways of going about these things. We give advice on what has worked for us in the past -- and it isn't always the same. There are some topics here that will be debated until the end of time. Read the advice, then research it on your own to see if it is something that will work for you. This is a forum -- not an encyclopedia. We can't vote for you, we can't pick your religious beliefs, we can't discipline your kids, and we can't tell you how to take care of your tank. But we can offer suggestions. Some are experts in certain areas here --- so it is good to listen to them. It is up to you to research and then research some more. If you don't like someone's opinion on this forum, just don't do it.

 

[Wildreefs]

There in lies my

1. As far as hardiness goes, before buying a fish, I like to look here. It isn't 100% accurate, but it gives me an idea of what I might be getting myself into. I generally research what I'm getting into before I buy it. https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+2124+164&pcatid=164, https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+2971+212&pcatid=212
2. When you go to the doctor; you know they are going to look down your throat and check your heartbeat -- the same goes for fish health diagnosis. The same questions are asked at the beginning each time. The members were being nothing but kind and trying to get to the bottom of what could be your problem. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. This is a forum that is designed to help people. You gave the members barely over an hour to get to the bottom of your problem when out of frustration you asked this thread to be taken down when you didn't like what you were hearing.
3. Whether it be religion, child rearing, politics or reef keeping, we all have our own ways of going about these things. We give advice on what has worked for us in the past -- and it isn't always the same. There are some topics here that will be debated until the end of time. Read the advice, then research it on your own to see if it is something that will work for you. This is a forum -- not an encyclopedia. We can't vote for you, we can't pick your religious beliefs, we can't discipline your kids, and we can't tell you how to take care of your tank. But we can offer suggestions. Some are experts in certain areas here --- so it is good to listen to them. It is up to you to research and then research some more. If you don't like someone's opinion on this forum, just don't do it.

There in lies my problem, peoples opinion written as fact. If I run into a “disease”, I search here and am told this treats this, use for x amount of days, at this strength.

These are all written as is, when in reality, they are constantly changing and not based on fact.

Case in point this year alone, the sticky’s have said quick cure from mardel is acceptable for brook. When looked into by me and brought up, was determined it was not good for brook, not enough strength percentage. Had I not questioned it, I would have used it, felt like brook was eliminated, and been quickly breaking down my tank.

I/many would be better off not reading anything and investigate further , rather than see a concrete answer and go with it, when it isn’t true.

If you to an md with high blood pressure, you would rathe hear I’m not sure what to put you in, let me refer you, rather than take this if they are unsure if that isn’t even meant for bp. If they say to take something, you assume they know what they’re talking about.

My whole point is, most of the info here is second hand, he said she said, my lfs said to, this wholesaler does this and it works.

Some of the big points include:

How long to treat with copper: 30 days is the most recommended, however there aren’t outliers and claims of not being enough.

UV use with copper power. Some say hard no, others run it all the time.

Copper level strength. 1.5 is minimum , up until 2 months ago when someone said 1.75 didn’t kill velvet. Sucks for anyone that played it safe with 1.7, what a waste that could be.

Using rocks that have been in copper. If you listen to many on here, thousands of dollars no worth of Rock would have been discarded. Meanwhile some honest folks will tell you they’ve used them after with no ill effect as long as you’re reading 0.

 

[Wildreefs]

What makes me laugh harder is the same people signing up in February, asking is this ich, then giving advice 3 months later. Talk about over night experts and the issue with message boards