Mysterious wound on back? Could use some help ID'ing please

[DT Prime]

Hey everyone,

I am a new reefer and just started my first tank a couple months ago, then two weeks ago I added my first fish, a royal gramma and a gold assessor basslet. Sadly the royal gramma passed after 3 days, the first two days the it seemed fine and would come out for feedings and spend the rest of its time in various rock tunnels, the third day it did not come out at all, and the fourth day I found it stuck dead in some rocks. Took it to the guy I bought it from and he said he couldn't see anything specific wrong with it and that maybe 20% of the time they lose a gramma within the first week, and looking around this forum and others it does appear they have a somewhat high mortality rate. The basslet appeared to be fine swimming actively and eating well but I had a bad feeling so I decided to watch it for a while and see how it did before adding anything else.

Well unfortunately after about 4 days after the gramma died and roughly a week after being added in the first place it developed what appears to be a wound on it's back just below the dorsal fin. This was about a week ago and I've had to spend several days out of town due to some personal matters unfortunately. I showed some pictures of it to the guy I bought it from and he thought it might be an exit wound from a parasite of some kind, but claims to not have seen anything like it before. Today I finally got home and worse I now see some other white discoloring on his other side that hasn't been there up to yesterday. It doesn't seem like ich from the pictures of I've seen of it but it's the closest I've seen, the wound I can't find a close comparison too so far.

Water chemistry has been getting checked every other day or so and all appear to be in line, no ammonia or nitrite, nitrate at 5-10ppm, ph 8, P04 is 0, and Ca/Mg/Alk are all within range, there are no other fish and no corals in the tank, just 4 red leg hermits between 1/2-3/4", 1 blue leg about 1/4", 4 nassarius about 1/4", and 1 small skunk cleaner shrimp. I used all Real Reef Rock and one small rock from a friends established tank who doesn't have any known mystery predators, so I don't believe there is anything livestock wise that would be able to do it. Tank is a 55 gallon Red Sea Reefer 250. Fish were supposedly quarantined for 2 weeks with other fish which he claims so far have shown no signs of anything similar, they run UV lights and fresh water dip their fish but do not medicate as far as I know, unfortunately I did not QT them myself after purchase. Both were drip acclimated for 1 hour.

Please let me know what else I can provide that would be helpful and thanks in advance for any ideas anyone can offer, here are pictures of the gramma that died and a picture of the wound from the 5 days since the new camera came:

Dead Gramma 1


Dead Gramma 2


10/22

10/23

10/24

10/25

10/26

10/27

 

[melypr1985]

Hi there! I'm sorry for the loss of your gramma. I can't see the picture of him, but that's alright. Your assessor has an infection. The cause could be from a parasite, but I don't see any outward signs of any so I can't be specific on that just yet. Do you have a QT? Or an extra tank to set up as a QT? You'll want antibiotics: kanaplex or Furan2 - those are my go-to meds for this. Don't treat him in the display.

As a side note, don't ever trust anybody's QT but your own. I doubt his QT procedures did much of anything at all. I do suggest you run all new additions to the tank through QT on your own, but I understand that's not an option for everybody.

 

[Highgrade]

Did you treat with Prazipro? It may be flukes from the looks of the other spots. Can you do a FW dip for 3-5 min? See if anything falls off. I had a blenny with similar spots and it turned out to be flukes. The spots eventually cleared up once the blenny was rid of the flukes after 3 rounds of Prazipro treatment.

 

[Humblefish]

Hi there! I'm sorry for the loss of your gramma. I can't see the picture of him, but that's alright. Your assessor has an infection. The cause could be from a parasite, but I don't see any outward signs of any so I can't be specific on that just yet. Do you have a QT? Or an extra tank to set up as a QT? You'll want antibiotics: kanaplex or Furan2 - those are my go-to meds for this. Don't treat him in the display.

As a side note, don't ever trust anybody's QT but your own. I doubt his QT procedures did much of anything at all. I do suggest you run all new additions to the tank through QT on your own, but I understand that's not an option for everybody.

^^ This; although I suspect either a parasite or worm is also in play here. But treating the infection comes first.

 

[DT Prime]

Hi there! I'm sorry for the loss of your gramma. I can't see the picture of him, but that's alright. Your assessor has an infection. The cause could be from a parasite, but I don't see any outward signs of any so I can't be specific on that just yet. Do you have a QT? Or an extra tank to set up as a QT? You'll want antibiotics: kanaplex or Furan2 - those are my go-to meds for this. Don't treat him in the display.

As a side note, don't ever trust anybody's QT but your own. I doubt his QT procedures did much of anything at all. I do suggest you run all new additions to the tank through QT on your own, but I understand that's not an option for everybody.

Thanks for the quick response! For some reason the app doesn't like those gramma pics I guess.

I don't currently have a second tank to use as a QT unfortunately, my plan was to set one up at a workspace I was hoping to have access to by now but may not until end of the year at this rate. Sadly got greedy and played the odds hoping I could get a couple in safely in the meantime so the tank wasn't empty for months, should have known ol' Murphy would get me and just waited.

I will try to get something setup but it will probably take a few days to get the supplies and medications, plus it will probably have to go on the dining room table which will be a fun conversation is there anything you recommend I do in the meantime to help it fight whatever is ailing while still in the DT? I have Rodi water and can try a fresh water dip, and I've been adding some vitamin/amino acid solution to the frozen foods I've been feeding.

The only thing positive at this point is he seems to be eating well and he doesn't look lethargic or erratic, at least to my untrained eye. Really hoping to not lose both original residents and have introduced something dangerous, at this rate tank will probably end up being empty til Christmas anyway!

 

[melypr1985]

is there anything you recommend I do in the meantime to help it fight whatever is ailing while still in the DT? I have Rodi water and can try a fresh water dip, and I've been adding some vitamin/amino acid solution to the frozen foods I've been feeding.

If you can get kanaplex quickly and Sechem's Focus, then you can soak it into the food and feed that once a day. 1 Tablespoon of food + 1 scoop of kanaplex + 1 scoop of Focus. Let it soak for 20 - 30 minutes before feeding. Run Carbon in the tank if you don't already and continue to add vitamins to the food as well. Keep feeding it until you can find a way to get another QT set up. I'm afraid this one will kill him without quick treatment.

 

[DT Prime]

If you can get kanaplex quickly and Sechem's Focus, then you can soak it into the food and feed that once a day. 1 Tablespoon of food + 1 scoop of kanaplex + 1 scoop of Focus. Let it soak for 20 - 30 minutes before feeding. Run Carbon in the tank if you don't already and continue to add vitamins to the food as well. Keep feeding it until you can find a way to get another QT set up. I'm afraid this one will kill him without quick treatment.

Thanks again for the input, I'm gonna try to put together the QT tomorrow. Just for my future knowledge are there things you see that are worrying beyond the obvious ones I mentioned, or is there a good resource you would recommend I can learn more about its symptoms?

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks again for the input, I'm gonna try to put together the QT tomorrow. Just for my future knowledge are there things you see that are worrying beyond the obvious ones I mentioned, or is there a good resource you would recommend I can learn more about its symptoms?

Mainly my experience with them. I see this pretty often at the store. We don't really have problems with ick, velvet and flukes because I make darn sure we don't. Mostly what I deal with now are infections. Some are contagious and our UV helps (but doesn't completely eradicate) bacteria that float around in the water, but since it caught on fire a few weeks ago it's been off. All of a sudden a surge in infections have popped up. Even with quick action and treatment on my part I've lost several fish that had this exact same problem in the last couple weeks.

 

[DT Prime]

Mainly my experience with them. I see this pretty often at the store. We don't really have problems with ick, velvet and flukes because I make darn sure we don't. Mostly what I deal with now are infections. Some are contagious and our UV helps (but doesn't completely eradicate) bacteria that float around in the water, but since it caught on fire a few weeks ago it's been off. All of a sudden a surge in infections have popped up. Even with quick action and treatment on my part I've lost several fish that had this exact same problem in the last couple weeks.

Yikes, alright good to know. They definitely have UV lights running at their shop too, so maybe it was suppressed while they had it. Since leaving it and going in my tank they bboth looked fine and then deteriorated, albeit at different speeds but that might be a wild vs captive bred difference?

Thanks so much again for your input, I really appreciate the insight since I'm not seeing much out there that resemble the things I'm seeing. He's been spending more time in the rock today so I turned the flow down a bit and he's been out since picking pods off the glass, hoping to get the QT together soon though. Would the UV light be helpful at this point or just medication in your opinion?

Thanks again!

 

[Humblefish]

I'll take velvet, brook, flukes, etc. ANY DAY over having to treat a fish for a bacterial infection. At least treating for parasites & worms is pretty straightforward. Bacterial diseases (infections) are tricky because you have to match the correct antibiotic to the strain of bacterium the fish is being afflicted by. The proper way to do this is to take a skin scrape of the affected area and scope ID it. This is beyond the capability of most casual aquarists, so the next best thing is to treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic which targets a wide range of bacteria. Unfortunately, even once you start dosing the proper antibiotic it can a week or longer to see any positive results in the fish. It's frustrating to say the least.

 

[melypr1985]

Yikes, alright good to know. They definitely have UV lights running at their shop too, so maybe it was suppressed while they had it. Since leaving it and going in my tank they bboth looked fine and then deteriorated, albeit at different speeds but that might be a wild vs captive bred difference?

Thanks so much again for your input, I really appreciate the insight since I'm not seeing much out there that resemble the things I'm seeing. He's been spending more time in the rock today so I turned the flow down a bit and he's been out since picking pods off the glass, hoping to get the QT together soon though. Would the UV light be helpful at this point or just medication in your opinion?

Thanks again!

I would just medicate at this point. UV lights arn't very good for home use and honestly doesn't help us a whole bunch either. It's just a tool that keeps the number of infections down a bit (not a ton).

 

[melypr1985]

I'll take velvet, brook, flukes, etc. ANY DAY over having to treat a fish for a bacterial infection. At least treating for parasites & worms is pretty straightforward. Bacterial diseases (infections) are tricky because you have to match the correct antibiotic to the strain of bacterium the fish is being afflicted by. The proper way to do this is to take a skin scrape of the affected area and scope ID it. This is beyond the capability of most casual aquarists, so the next best thing is to treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic which targets a wide range of bacteria. Unfortunately, even once you start dosing the proper antibiotic it can a week or longer to see any positive results in the fish. It's frustrating to say the least.

You said it!!! I hate infections! It's so frustraiting :mad:

 

[Humblefish]

You said it!!! I hate infections! It's so frustraiting :mad:

Why do you think I'm experimenting with Melafix, H2O2, etc.? I'm desperate to find a better way of dealing with infections.

 

[melypr1985]

Why do you think I'm experimenting with Melafix, H2O2, etc.? I'm desperate to find a better way of dealing with infections.

Please let me know how that's going. I'm at my limit with it. I just added another tang to my QT (which keeps being empty because the infections kill the fish before the meds can save them) today. I want badly for this to stop.

 

[Humblefish]

Please let me know how that's going. I'm at my limit with it. I just added another tang to my QT (which keeps being empty because the infections kill the fish before the meds can save them) today. I want badly for this to stop.

Well, at the moment the two best options are:

1. Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex (which you already know about)
2. Nitrofuracin Green Powder:http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

Lately I've been having better luck using #2, so you might wanna add it to your arsenal.

 

[DT Prime]

I'll take velvet, brook, flukes, etc. ANY DAY over having to treat a fish for a bacterial infection. At least treating for parasites & worms is pretty straightforward. Bacterial diseases (infections) are tricky because you have to match the correct antibiotic to the strain of bacterium the fish is being afflicted by. The proper way to do this is to take a skin scrape of the affected area and scope ID it. This is beyond the capability of most casual aquarists, so the next best thing is to treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic which targets a wide range of bacteria. Unfortunately, even once you start dosing the proper antibiotic it can a week or longer to see any positive results in the fish. It's frustrating to say the least.

Bummer. In terms of future additions is there a certain waiting period you would recommend after a bacterial infection before it's theoretically safe? I'm definitely not in a rush after this but would like to have some idea of whether the tank will need to be barren for an extended period of time if this goes south

Also I can understand the bacterial infection as a result of the open wound but I'm still very curious what might have caused it in the first place...

 

[melypr1985]

Nitrofuracin Green Powder:http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

I'll need to see if I can get that in the store.

 

[melypr1985]

Also I can understand the bacterial infection as a result of the open wound but I'm still very curious what might have caused it in the first place...

It's hard to say specifically regarding your assessor. He's not showing any other symptoms that we can go off of. It's usually the result of another parasite (ick, velvet ect) penetrating the skin, making a hole that gets infected. That's most of the time.

 

[Humblefish]

Bummer. In terms of future additions is there a certain waiting period you would recommend after a bacterial infection before it's theoretically safe? I'm definitely not in a rush after this but would like to have some idea of whether the tank will need to be barren for an extended period of time if this goes south

Also I can understand the bacterial infection as a result of the open wound but I'm still very curious what might have caused it in the first place...

You normally don't have to go fallow for a bacterial infection. In time, your fishes' immune systems will develop antibodies to fight it and keep it at bay until the strain dies off. It's the initial wave that can overwhelm a fish and that's when their immune system might need a helping hand via antibiotics. Much like our own when fighting an infection.

Harmful bacteria is almost always present in the water. Like germs in our air. Most of it is gram positive and a healthy fish's natural immune system can usually handle that without any assistance. But gram negative bacteria can be very dangerous and those are usually brought in on a sick wildcaught fish. Or I suppose in a drop of water on a coral/invert is technically possible as well.

 

[DT Prime]

You normally don't have to go fallow for a bacterial infection. In time, your fishes' immune systems will develop antibodies to fight it and keep it at bay until the strain dies off. It's the initial wave that can overwhelm a fish and that's when their immune system might need a helping hand via antibiotics. Much like our own when fighting an infection.

Harmful bacteria is almost always present in the water. Like germs in our air. Most of it is gram positive and a healthy fish's natural immune system can usually handle that without any assistance. But gram negative bacteria can be very dangerous and those are usually brought in on a sick wildcaught fish. Or I suppose in a drop of water on a coral/invert is technically possible as well.

Cool that's what I figured, thanks for confirming and your input in general is greatly appreciated! The bacterial stuff makes sense and I'm guessing the gramma had whatever kind of nasty is bothering the assessor too and may have just been to weak of a specimen to fight it off while acclimating. Now just wish I knew what caused that darn hole in the assessor in the first place so I'm not waiting for something else to burst out like Alien!