Mystery fish deaths?

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I'm now seeing a third fish begin the same pattern. All these fish were/have been in my display tank for 12-18 months perfectly healthy. They were all originally quarantined with prophylactic copper, internal and external parasite treatment

They start hiding but still eat, and then stop eating and then die over a period of several weeks There has been about 2- 2 1/2 months separation between the onset of symptoms for each one so it's not back to back. Anmonia is zero. The first fish was a yellowhead jawfish, then a royal gramma, now a Mccoskers. I see no other signs of observable disease whatsover besides what I described.

I have not added anything to the tank is 8 months. I've had a Timor, a TS Blenny and pink streaked also in the tank throughout this situation, and they are fine as of now. I've had the Timor for more than two years

Any thoughts?
 
Sorry, this is a tough one. Other than making sure you are feeding high quality foods, I have no good advice. Especially the gramma is boggling. They have been bullet proof IME. One last thought is to make sure you are not exposing them to extended periods, or very high levels of copper during quarantine. I believe using copper power and a Hanna copper checker has helped me tremendously with quarantine. I use the following method. Good luck.

 
No stray voltage. I have a GFCI and aground probe and I put my hands in the tank regularly. I thought about the copper exposure, but I have a Hanna checker and the were subject to 1.75 for 30 days. I feed Reef Frenzy, Mysis, Sprialina Brine and algae wafers


I'm totally perplexed
 
No stray voltage. I have a GFCI and aground probe and I put my hands in the tank regularly. I thought about the copper exposure, but I have a Hanna checker and the were subject to 1.75 for 30 days. I feed Reef Frenzy, Mysis, Sprialina Brine and algae wafers


I'm totally perplexed
I would be too. If you bough the McCoskers as an adult he could have lived out a normal life of 4-5 years. But grammas live 15 plus years in my tanks. Although I am not a fan of ICP, I might run one to rule out something strange.
 
Sound like something internal is happening. Have you noticed white or stringy poop from any of them?
What foods are you feeding and are you adding vitamin and garlic to foods periodically ?
Lastly, what is tank temp and salinity as well as ammonia level ?
 
No stray voltage. I have a GFCI and aground probe and I put my hands in the tank regularly. I thought about the copper exposure, but I have a Hanna checker and the were subject to 1.75 for 30 days. I feed Reef Frenzy, Mysis, Sprialina Brine and algae wafers


I'm totally perplexed


The losses are definitely odd, and with the long time frame, I wonder if they are even related?

We see chronic losses in fish due to Mycobacterium marinum...the fish do o.k., but we lose them one a month or so, and it goes on and on. Trouble is, there may not always be external symptoms of this (when you do see it, it could be cloudy eyes, poor color, pinched belly and tattered fins). The only definitive diagnosis is to find granulomas on the internal organs (typically the liver) that stain for acid-fast. But then, there is no cure, so that's an issue. Myco is ubiquitous, it can be cultured from frozen fish foods and most every aquarium, if you try hard enough. Fish with good immune systems can fight it off, it hits old fish very hard.

Stray voltage is a red herring, and in many cases, people are just measuring induced voltage from pumps. The fish in your tank are not grounded. For the same reason birds on a powerline aren't harmed, your fish are not grounded, so there is NO electrical potential. Stray voltage is only an issue from the human side of things - your feet can make at least a partial ground, and that's how you get a shock if things aren't right electrically with your tank.

A little story: fifty years ago I came home from school and my 29 gallon tank was full of bubbly brown water. The fish were swimming around fine. I saw that the glass heater had broken. I figured, since the fish are fine, the fuse must have blown, so I got up on a chair and reached into the tank and pretty much got blown across the room and ended up on my bed. The brown in the water was apparently sulfates from electrolysis of the seawater. I did have to change all the water b/c of that, but the electricity itself didn't harm the fish.

Jay
 
I have not noticed any white poop but the hiding and then no eating makes me think in could be internal too. But he's probably been tweeted twice for 21 days with medicated food in the past once initially in QT and then once when I suspected there may be some internal parasites in the DT so I treated all the fish out of precaution, but that was a long time back

I could do it again, but hate to overmedicate or treat when I'm not sure?
 
Just an update. The Mccoskers is still hiding but continues to eat. But I went down this same road with the gramma and jawfish before. Her behavior is way off from normal

I started spot feeding her with general cure mixed with food. I've had a particular problem in my DT in the past with internal parasites/worm but I treated all the fish for this in the past. I'm suspicious that there may be a strain of internal parasites that has persisted in the DT and then perhaps overcomes a fish at some point here and there. I did see a perhaps one suspicious white looking poop floating around a few days ago, but it may have been more pale than white . Nothing has been obvious

I dont have lot of experience in the hobby. Is the theory of a persistant internal parasite that's never really been eradicated despite standard treatment, popping up here and there and killing fish even plausible, or does that not make any sense?
 
There could be protozoan parasites involved here, like Spironucleus. Internal metazoan (worm) parasites come in two flavors: direct development and those that require additional hosts in order to complete their life cycle. The latter are rarely a long term issue with marine fish as the hosts aren't present for them to spread. The direct development parasites like nematodes can cause mortality over long terms. I recently saw some really nasty nematodes that migrated out of the fish's gut and entered the liver. Here is one issue though: if you are successful in killing off a large number of these worms, they can decompose and the fish dies of toxic shock.

I worry about just mixing general cure in food - you don't know the weight of the fish, nor the amount of medication being delivered, so the dose is therefore unknown I'm working on a medicated food paper for R2R, but it won't be ready in time for you to use it (sorry!). Here is what I have so far:

Medicated foods
Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export water from their tissues and do not take in aquarium water, so injectable or oral medications are really the only delivery system that works for them.
Years ago, there were a variety of commercially available medicated flake and pellet foods. Currently, there seems to be only one product on the market, so aquarists are faced with either forgoing medicated foods, or making their own.
Presently, many aquarists try to soak their fish food in medication and then feed that to their fish. The trouble is that this can never really work. Oral fish medications are always dosed on an “as fed basis”, usually milligrams of medication per kilogram of fish biomass. In the case of soaking food in medication; the amount of medication per gram of food is unknown, as is the weight of the fish, and so is the amount of food being fed. With that many variables, a proper dose simply cannot be formulated.


Case history: (Just an example of the math involved)
An aquarium housing 13 rather small fish needed to be treated with oral antibiotics. The veterinary recommendation was to use erythromycin, dosed at 100 mg/kg fish body weight in the diet for 14-21 days.

The first step was to estimate the fish mass in the aquarium (in this case, but comparing to a known weight data set). 10 platies (about 5 g total) 1 goldfish at around 40 g, one or 2 danios at 2 g and one large tetra and 10 g, for a total mass of around 57 grams.

For the erythromycin dose, that works out to be 5.7 mg of erythromycin fed to the whole tank each day.

One usually assumes that the fish will eat around 3% of their body mass each day, so for this system, that works out to be 1.7 grams of food per day. Therefore, we need 5.7 mg in 1.7 grams of food, or 670 mg in 200 grams of medicated food.

Erythromycin is soluble in ethanol. Dissolving 670 mg of erythromycin in the smallest amount of ethanol possible and then spray it on to 200 grams of flake food and allow it to evaporate. The fish were then fed 1.7 grams of food daily (spread over three feedings).

Jay
 
There could be protozoan parasites involved here, like Spironucleus. Internal metazoan (worm) parasites come in two flavors: direct development and those that require additional hosts in order to complete their life cycle. The latter are rarely a long term issue with marine fish as the hosts aren't present for them to spread. The direct development parasites like nematodes can cause mortality over long terms. I recently saw some really nasty nematodes that migrated out of the fish's gut and entered the liver. Here is one issue though: if you are successful in killing off a large number of these worms, they can decompose and the fish dies of toxic shock.

I worry about just mixing general cure in food - you don't know the weight of the fish, nor the amount of medication being delivered, so the dose is therefore unknown I'm working on a medicated food paper for R2R, but it won't be ready in time for you to use it (sorry!). Here is what I have so far:

Medicated foods
Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export water from their tissues and do not take in aquarium water, so injectable or oral medications are really the only delivery system that works for them.
Years ago, there were a variety of commercially available medicated flake and pellet foods. Currently, there seems to be only one product on the market, so aquarists are faced with either forgoing medicated foods, or making their own.
Presently, many aquarists try to soak their fish food in medication and then feed that to their fish. The trouble is that this can never really work. Oral fish medications are always dosed on an “as fed basis”, usually milligrams of medication per kilogram of fish biomass. In the case of soaking food in medication; the amount of medication per gram of food is unknown, as is the weight of the fish, and so is the amount of food being fed. With that many variables, a proper dose simply cannot be formulated.


Case history: (Just an example of the math involved)
An aquarium housing 13 rather small fish needed to be treated with oral antibiotics. The veterinary recommendation was to use erythromycin, dosed at 100 mg/kg fish body weight in the diet for 14-21 days.

The first step was to estimate the fish mass in the aquarium (in this case, but comparing to a known weight data set). 10 platies (about 5 g total) 1 goldfish at around 40 g, one or 2 danios at 2 g and one large tetra and 10 g, for a total mass of around 57 grams.

For the erythromycin dose, that works out to be 5.7 mg of erythromycin fed to the whole tank each day.

One usually assumes that the fish will eat around 3% of their body mass each day, so for this system, that works out to be 1.7 grams of food per day. Therefore, we need 5.7 mg in 1.7 grams of food, or 670 mg in 200 grams of medicated food.

Erythromycin is soluble in ethanol. Dissolving 670 mg of erythromycin in the smallest amount of ethanol possible and then spray it on to 200 grams of flake food and allow it to evaporate. The fish were then fed 1.7 grams of food daily (spread over three feedings).

Jay


Thank you Jay! I'm using GC with Focus and food per the Seachem intructions one scoop of each per tbsp of food. I feel like I have to at least try something.


Should I try the erythromycin instead and use your math as best as can and feed the entire tank? Since teh nematodes dont need a host, wouldn't the fish just re-infect again after treatment? I have no idea how to estimate the weight, I have one 3" Mccoskers, one 2.5" TS Blenny. One 3.5" thick Timor wrasse and one 2" pink streak. I have a bunch of Furan 2 aready?


Otherwise, how in the heck do I get rid of nematodes that dont need a host, wait until all the fish die from it slowly over some unknown and uncertain amount of time not being able to add any new fish, and then break down the tank, bleach everything, cure the rock and start all over? The Timor has been in there for 2.5 years. That is a pretty crazy task, I'll probably just quit if I have to do that, sigh.
 
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