Myth mondays: Ich

[Reefing Madness]

Oh, I'm not looking for any answers here. I'm posting what I've seen and what I know. I've been at this 20 years, and have seen and read some pretty scary crap. I only post these things so that all that read this are aware that science sometimes has holes in it.
When the PBT was put in my tank he got it within hours, not 24. He had it when I added him. The QT that he was in also had the Naso along with which I bought, both in substantial copper treatment for 4 weeks, more than plenty of time to kill a parasite that dislikes copper to begin with. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not posting for answers, just an oppsing view to what you've read. Ige debated this with Leebca. I got no where with him either. Just a post to be read by all, and be aware, ich isnt as easy to get rid of as one woukd think.
My Crazy Ich prone Hippo can be seen still in my tank, he is in my albulm for all to see. Hes ditched the parasite evertyime he gets it, I've seen it on him so oftern that I don't even think about it anymore.

 

[SeymourDuncan]

In your opinion, what is the hardest part involved in attempting to irradiate the evil buggers?

 

[Reefing Madness]

I really can't answer that one. Because technically its not all that hard to get rid of it. Hypo pops them, so by having a QT set up, its that easy to kill it. The hard part eveyone has imo, is keeping the fish alive. I guess the hard part is not knowing weather or not you've actually gotten the parasite off the fish. Eveyone goes by the time frame, only to have it reappear, then having to do it all over again. If it gets in the gills, its to hard to find out, and most times to late.

 

[SeymourDuncan]

Good point about knowing when the fish is in fact completely cured. Being a nearly invisible problem makes it quite difficult, especially when a single organism can repopulate a tank.

Hypo is certainly a great way that is rather safe. PH control may be cumbersome to some, but then again so is copper in that case.

I think a company needs to create an auto quarantine tank controller that can test for any medication and parameter involved but that won't be a cheap toy. It would be great to QT a fish from another city for people who travel a lot too. I know that's a major factor with some instances.

 

[Palting]

Okay, if we are posting what we have seen and what we know, here is what I have seen, what I have done, and what I know.

110 gallon tank with 11 fish, to include 4 tangs. Purple tang first showed signs of Ich, disappeared wthin a few days, then seen on the hippo tang and nasso, goes away after a few days, shows up again in the purple. And so on and so forth, cycle and repeat, using one to several of the other fish ad nauseum. All fish are eating and swimming, none die.

So, everyone agree I now had an Ich infested tank?

Okay. I am not going to go into the "reef safe" nonsense that I did, since this is not the purpose of the exercise. I'll just let you all know they all failed to break the cycle and repeat episodes. Still, all fish ate well and none died.

Bought a whole new 150 gallon set-up. Transferred all the rock and inverts to it. Left the 11 fish in the 110 gallon, serviced by the fully mature wet/dry bioball that was with the system. So, now I have 2 tank systems running. A relatively newly established 150 gallon set-up with mature live rock and inverts, and a 110 gallon with 11 fish with a mature bioball filtration system.

Everyone agree I now have 2 tank systems, both infected by Ich?

Okay. So now, I drop the salinity in the 110 gallon to 1.009. I keep the 150 gallon fishless. Both systems are kept completely separate, with separate tools like nets and magfloats, and I even rinse my arms if I have to go between the two tanks. 110 gallon stays at 1.009 for 6 weeks, takes me 2 more weeks to raise it back up to 1.026. By then the 150 gallon has been fishless for 8 weeks. Transfer all the fish to the 150.

Over the next 3 years, I lost 2 fish. They went carpet surfing. Bought a 55 gallon, kept that running as a QT. All new fish went into the 55 gallon, and all were treated with hyposalinity for 6 weeks or more. All coral got dipped, and QT done as well, usually for 4-6 weeks.

Over those 3 years, now approaching 4, there has never been an Ich spot nor Ich symptom in the 150 gallon.

Now, do you agree I have eradicated Ich, and have an Ich-free tank? Or, do you insist I still have Ich?

 

[Reefing Madness]

Im not playing this game.

 

[Palting]

Im not playing this game.

Dunno if it's a game, I'm just responding to your allegation that you cannot eradicate Ich. As you said I believe in an earlier post on this thread, "proof is in the pudding". Anyway, just so you don't say I'm making it up, here are a few photos.

The 150 gallon being set up, with most of the rocks from the 110:

The 110 QT. Notice the few rocks and mature substrate I left behind. Not a good idea, as they caused some issues.

4 finally healthy Ich free tangs, along with several other fish several months in the now Ich free 150:

The Ich free 150 more than 3 1/2 years later:

 

[miyags]

I agree with most of your treatment, with the exception of the new tank being fish less for at least 90 days. Well done!!! And great looking tank!!!

 

[Palting]

I agree with most of your treatment, with the exception of the new tank being fish less for at least 90 days. Well done!!! And great looking tank!!!

Thanks! When I did this over 3 years ago, it was accepted that the Ich life cycle was 4 weeks. Since then, there have been opinions that the Ich cyst can lie dormant much longer than it was originally thought, possibly for years even. So it's entirely possible that a particular tank can never get rid of certain Ich cysts, even with 90 fallow days. OTOH, it's also entirely possible to eradicate ich in other tanks, as I believe I proved.

 

[SeymourDuncan]

I went 100 days fishless before I...oh my cube is still fishless lol. My 90 went 60 pre-fish post cycle

 

[brahm]

Keep your water parameters stable, your tank devoid of excessive nutrients, and your fish well fed and ICH isn't an issue. Wouldn't you get sick or be more likely to be unable to combat parastites if you were living in a toxic environment? I can't even remember the last time I had an ICH issue with at least a dozen tanks, and dozens of fish if not 100s from when I had my shop. It's been over 10 years or so since my first tank when I last had trouble with ich. Brook on wild clowns sure. Ich non-issue. The only thing I treat when I get in is SPS for AEFW, Red Bugs, and Nudis. Everything else goes right in the DT or FT. That's not say I haven't seen a spot here or there when introducing a new fish but it's never developed into anything more then that.

 

[vetteguy53081]

True false False True

 

[Volpone]

It's very nice to share ur experience with ich, so a lot of feedback has drop ,
There is some said they get ich for one fish and nothing happen for another and it's recover after while .
So what the truth behind this one ???
I have purple tang it has ich for more than 10 days , it's doing very will till the moment and eating .
I don't notice any ich on the other fish ,
I keep feed the Fish garlic food like mythes soak with secheme garlic and for tang dry algea soaked also .
It's very hard to catch the purple tang , so do I have chance to recover this purple tang with out spreading the ich for the other fish ???
I have also YG , chromis ,dotty back , mandarine, cardinal pajama , fire fish ,
My tank reef with Lps and softies .
Plz ur experience comments with such issue welcome to drop ,
And for treatment do u prefer hypo or copper ??

 

[vetteguy53081]

In the past I have done the freshwater dip method ( obviously with a Tang) and it was successful. Cleared the fish right away.

 

[Deinonych]

Freshwater dips don't work for crypto since the trophonts are protected by the fish's skin. Dips are good for temporary relief from amyloodinium (velvet) and flukes.

 

[DSP]

Keep your water parameters stable, your tank devoid of excessive nutrients, and your fish well fed and ICH isn't an issue. Wouldn't you get sick or be more likely to be unable to combat parastites if you were living in a toxic environment? I can't even remember the last time I had an ICH issue with at least a dozen tanks, and dozens of fish if not 100s from when I had my shop. It's been over 10 years or so since my first tank when I last had trouble with ich. Brook on wild clowns sure. Ich non-issue. The only thing I treat when I get in is SPS for AEFW, Red Bugs, and Nudis. Everything else goes right in the DT or FT. That's not say I haven't seen a spot here or there when introducing a new fish but it's never developed into anything more then that.

+1 ich is nothing,to many people stress and over react when all you have to do is keep your tank clean and stress free it's as simple as that.ill buy a fish with ich iv done it many times and will continue to if I like the fish because ich is so easy to cure.Its when people start removing there fish from there tanks and doing the hypo crap or dosing all kinds of meds and there fish either dies or gets ich as soon as they put the fish back into the display because its so stressed,that's the absolute worse thing you can do but still there's many people that recommend doing it idk why.just keep your fish fed well and don't stress them and they will be fine unless there's other problems with them.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I then ask, what is the opinion/experience of cleaner wrasse/cleaner shrimp with parasite control?

 

[Tahoe61]

I then ask, what is the opinion/experience of cleaner wrasse/cleaner shrimp with parasite control?

There have been studies done on cleaner shrimp. Cleaner shrimp were introduced to a tank with symptomatic disease. The cleaner shrimp were removed, killed and the gut was examined for the presence of the parasite, no parasite were found. Cleaner fish and cleaner shrimp merely feed at the surface the outer most layer of tissue. Cryptocaryans irritans is found deeper than the cleaners can reach. While both types of cleaners may provide some symptomatic relief they are not an effective treatment for Marine Ich.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Which counters how they are being sold in the trade. I figured a myth but wanted to see what others thought.

There have been studies done on cleaner shrimp. Cleaner shrimp were introduced to a tank with symptomatic disease. The cleaner shrimp were removed, killed and the gut was examined for the presence of the parasite, no parasite were found. Cleaner fish and cleaner shrimp merely feed at the surface the outer most layer of tissue. Cryptocaryans irritans is found deeper than the cleaners can reach. While both types of cleaners may provide some symptomatic relief they are not an effective treatment for Marine Ich.

 

[Palting]

I've tried them. They don't work.