n-doc says high nitrogen, is this actually a problem

[Miller535]

I regularly get Triton ICP test done. They have been very helpful. So decided to get a N-doc test done. Not really sure what it even shows me. My nitrate according to red sea test is usually 4-8ppm. N-doc says I have high nitrogen. Is that a problem? Is there any useful information in this? I'll post the link for my results

Showroom

The most experienced in solution based water chemistry in the industry. Continuing to revolutionise reef keeping worldwide since 2008.

www.triton-lab.de

 

[Miller535]

maybe @Lasse?

 

[Lasse]

I have done 7 N-Doc tests on my own aquarium and I think that I´m slowly learn this test. The N-doc measure all N forms including both inorganic and organic forms. It is the 2.73 figure - this include NHx-N, NOx-N, protein-N, aminoacid-N and other forms of organic N. The N/NO3 figure is simply an expression of the situation there all this N would be in the NO3 form - simply the max NO3 you can have in that sample. If you put in your measured NO3 in the next step - I put in 6 (as an average of your 4-8) and the bar that show the relationship between total N and NO3-N (Triton use N/NO3 but I use the international accepted NO3-N for expression of all N in the NO3 form) If I put in 6 - the ration in your case is rather good. It is around 50/50 - and it is the figure that I use as a good ratio in my aquarium.

If I look on your other parameters in that text - you are rather low in P and that result in an imbalance of the ratios between N and P. If its matter or not - ????? but your P is lower than the 0.03 PO4-P that at least one scientific paper has pointed out as a limit for P deficiency at higher N levels - please see

Nutrient´s ratio - of importance or not?

Hi The goal with this tread is to openly discuss a rather "hot" topic - and maybe state that is time to change "chasing" numbers in favour for chasing ratios. First some remarks For me - a compound (read mostly nutrient) is the limited factor for growth if adding it directly will be...

www.reef2reef.com

Your organic C/inorganic C seems good and also the C/P ratio

Does this means anything of interest - do the reality check.
How is your reef going - do you have problems or are you satisfied with how it looks and how it develops. IMO if it is good - do not fix something that´s not broken just because of a test, However - if there is problems - you may have a clue here. In that case - you have three options.

1) Lower the the total N down to around 0.4 (more skimming (take away protein and aminoacid-N), rise your macro algae production (take away mostly inorganic N as NOx-N and NHx-N) or increase your denitrification rate. If you rise the macro algae production - you must keep a eye on your PO4 values - they are already rather low.
2) Rise your PO4 level. My goal is around 0.06 on Triton tests (it correspond to around 0.14 on my HI-774 checker) If you do this - I´m rather sure that you will rise your macroalgae production too - a win-win situation
3) do both

As a reference here is my last N-DOC - my measured NO3 was 4 ppm

Showroom

The most experienced in solution based water chemistry in the industry. Continuing to revolutionise reef keeping worldwide since 2008.

www.triton-lab.de

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't think there is the needed background information to say what levels in this test are good and which are not good for any given reef tank.

 

[Lasse]

I don't think there is the needed background information to say what levels in this test are good and which are not good for any given reef tank.

This test is a tool in understanding your own aquarium - needed background information you will get through observations of the aquarium in question at different measurements levels. All reef tanks is different - therefore there is no magical figures that you need to rely on - but the new tools developed during the last 5-10 years are a help to understand the processes of a reef aquarium.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This test is a tool in understanding your own aquarium - needed background information you will get through observations of the aquarium in question at different measurements levels. All reef tanks is different - therefore there is no magical figures that you need to rely on - but the new tools developed during the last 5-10 years are a help to understand the processes of a reef aquarium.

Sincerely Lasse

I agree that it may become a useful tool. That will require a lot of correlation between different levels and different outcomes in a reef tank. Even then, it may be like phosphate, with opinions and preferences changing with time as folks show that there is no hard and fast rule .

 

[Miller535]

I did this test because I have had dino and cyano for most of the last year. The cyano is gone I think, and I would say the dino is 80-90% gone. I was hoping to glean something from this that would be the final nail in dinos (as I do believe dinos come from imbalance). Although that does not seem to be the case. I do have a PO4 deficiency, I have to dose PO4 multiple times a week to keep it from bottoming out (at least on my hanna LR, usually get ,02-.04). Which also seems to drive my NO3 down occasionally and I am dosing NO3 about once a week.

 

[Miller535]

I over used GFO for years, and I think it stripped PO4 out of my rock and sand. I do not have a lot of corals, and they are not large either. So I do not think it is the corals consuming the PO4.

 

[Fourstars]

I’m having the same issue with my new setup. Dose phosphate and nitrate a few times a week. I think its being absorbed in the substrate, hoping eventually it will level out. finally beating the Dino’s and Cyanobacteria back by not letting them bottom out, and using diatomaceous earth filter.

 

[Miller535]

I’m having the same issue with my new setup. Dose phosphate and nitrate a few times a week. I think its being absorbed in the substrate, hoping eventually it will level out. finally beating the Dino’s and Cyanobacteria back by not letting them bottom out, and using diatomaceous earth filter.

I am doing this same thing minus the filter.

If I do not dose any PO4 my NO3 sits very stable. But when I dose to keep my PO4 up it slowly drives my NO3 down. I do not fully understand this relationship, but I know it exist.

 

[Lasse]

But when I dose to keep my PO4 up it slowly drives my NO3 down. I do not fully understand this relationship, but I know it exist.

This means that a part of your phosphate is consumed in growth of something that use photosynthesis (or sometimes of primary producing bacteria) - algae or zoox of the corals. if it was only adsorbed by rocks and sand - the NO3 would not go down. It also means that your system is truly P deficiency. Adding new phosphate accelerate the growth and hence - even uptake of NO3-N

I would go forward and let the NO3 slowly going down to around 4.

IMO both dino and cyanobacteria problems can be due of deficiency in orthophosphate. When combatting cyanobacteria - it is wise - IMO - to have NO3 above 5 ppm - not because of growth - mostly because of other biological issues as production of hydrogen sulphide that can release P from metalphoshorous compounds.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Miller535]

This means that a part of your phosphate is consumed in growth of something that use photosynthesis (or sometimes of primary producing bacteria) - algae or zoox in the corals. if it was only adsorbed by rocks and sand - the NO3 would not go down. It also means that your system is truly P deficiency. Adding new phosphate accelerate the growth and hence - even uptake of NO3-N

I would go forward and let the NO3 slowly going down to around 4.

IMO both dino and cyanobacteria problems can be due of deficiency in orthophosphate. When combatting cyanobacteria - it is wise - IMO - to have NO3 above 5 ppm - not because of growth - mostly because of other biological issues as production of hydrogen sulphide that can release P from metalphoshorous compounds.

Sincerely Lasse

That is very interesting. As I said I think the cyano is gone. There are still some dino left. Although I actually think diatoms are replacing the dino. Although I have not confirmed this under a microscope yet. The reason I think this is that it visibly looks different, and my urchins and snails are very readily consuming it. Where as they were not before. Tank is 125 gallons. I have 2 small montis, 1 elegance coral that is probably about 5-6" across, a few softies, and a handful of small LPS. So likely the diatoms and to some extent the corals are consuming.

 

[Dan_P]

I regularly get Triton ICP test done. They have been very helpful. So decided to get a N-doc test done. Not really sure what it even shows me. My nitrate according to red sea test is usually 4-8ppm. N-doc says I have high nitrogen. Is that a problem? Is there any useful information in this? I'll post the link for my results

Showroom

The most experienced in solution based water chemistry in the industry. Continuing to revolutionise reef keeping worldwide since 2008.

www.triton-lab.de

I collected N-DOC test results posted on R2R. Here is a graphical summary. The total nitrogen tends to be below 2, though your 2.4 ppm is not outrageously high.

The Triton N-DOC analysis might be useful if you collected the results once a week and monitored the numbers for trends. For example, how does TOC and TN vary with GAC relacement, wet vs dry skimming, dosing vinegar vs not, feeding X vs feeding Y, etc. As an occasional, one off observation it is mostly just for fun and mostly useless.

Oh yeah, I can’t miss an opportunity to point out there is no indication of how accurate these results are. A double whammy: we don’t know what the numbers mean nor whether they even accurately reflect what is in the aquarium water.

 

[Miller535]

I collected N-DOC test results posted on R2R. Here is a graphical summary. The total nitrogen tends to be below 2, though your 2.4 ppm is not outrageously high.

The Triton N-DOC analysis might be useful if you collected the results once a week and monitored the numbers for trends. For example, how does TOC and TN vary with GAC relacement, wet vs dry skimming, dosing vinegar vs not, feeding X vs feeding Y, etc. As an occasional, one off observation it is mostly just for fun and mostly useless.

Oh yeah, I can’t miss an opportunity to point out there is no indication of how accurate these results are. A double whammy: we don’t know what the numbers mean nor whether they even accurately reflect what is in the aquarium water.

Thanks, interesting to see how I compare with others.

As far as my tank I do not carbon dose of any kind and do 20% water changes every other week. My theory on my high nitrogen is that I have to dose neonitro every week to keep my nitrate up. But who knows.