Need advice !! Ready to give up

[James M]

One of the hammer head isn’t doing good but the other one is. Zoas, mushrooms, lepto and Kenya are all open but the Xenia isn’t happy.

 

[Katrina71]

Pretty much exactly what happened in mine. Give them time.

 

[Grigs]

I don't know much about reefing, but I read a thread last week about a gentleman celebrating his tanks 40 yr anniversary that had sudden die off. Turned out that occassionally the city would chemically treat the pipes, which resulted in a serious die off of his tanks that took him some time for him to identify. I believe that he also rectified it with a RO unit. Zane is right about Copper accumulation. It will not evaporate and will concentrate. You could dilute it back down by doing some rather large water changes, but it will always tend to build up again. If primarily only topping off with a low concentration the effect is inevitable.

The formula for concentration changes for elements that don't hide out like phosphorous (yes, I was listening Randy the Reef Chemist : ) ) is

C0 V0 + C1 V1 = C2V2
(1.2ppm Cu)(1 gallon treated tapwater) + (3.0ppm Cu)(19 gallons tank) = (2.91ppm Cu/)(20 gallons) = 58.2ppm Cu total in 20 gallons

58.2ppm/19 gallons = 3.063ppm

BUT as you evaporate that gallon off again, Concentration of Cu reaches 3.063ppm. So, as time increases, you continue to build up Copper by topping off. You would have to perform a significant water change in order to see an appreciable effect on your Copper concentration...

 

[Grigs]

I was going to give you an rodi. Let me check shipping cost. What's your zip?

You are a saint

 

[Katrina71]

You are a saint

Noooo. I just have one not being used. He needs it. Just makes sense.

 

[Grigs]

Still a saint : )

 

[James M]

I don't know much about reefing, but I read a thread last week about a gentleman celebrating his tanks 40 yr anniversary that had sudden die off. Turned out that occassionally the city would chemically treat the pipes, which resulted in a serious die off of his tanks that took him some time for him to identify. I believe that he also rectified it with a RO unit. Zane is right about Copper accumulation. It will not evaporate and will concentrate. You could dilute it back down by doing some rather large water changes, but it will always tend to build up again. If primarily only topping off with a low concentration the effect is inevitable.

The formula for concentration changes for elements that don't hide out like phosphorous (yes, I was listening Randy the Reef Chemist : ) ) is

C0 V0 + C1 V1 = C2V2
(1.2ppm Cu)(1 gallon treated tapwater) + (3.0ppm Cu)(19 gallons tank) = (2.91ppm Cu/)(20 gallons) = 58.2ppm Cu total in 20 gallons

58.2ppm/19 gallons = 3.063ppm

BUT as you evaporate that gallon off again, Concentration of Cu reaches 3.063ppm. So, as time increases, you continue to build up Copper by topping off. You would have to perform a significant water change in order to see an appreciable effect on your Copper concentration...

I changed to Purified water form the store sense this whole thing happened.

You are a saint

Right !

 

[Katrina71]

This analogy is funny, but true. It helped me visualize chemistry. If you have a jar of red/green M&Ms, 50 in total. 23 green copper, 27 red the rest of your water chemistry. Somebody eats 15 red (evap) it's going to leave only 12 red and the rest green. Your jar will be much more green...unless somebody eats the green they are still going to be there. Kinda make sense?

 

[Katrina71]

I did not mean to over simplify that. It is just a funny way it makes sense to me.

 

[Saltyreef]

No update on original issue rectification? Are you running carbon yet? You may want to consider a large 80% water change to jump start the removal process then run the carbon to clean up the rest. Also if your phosphates are still elevated, you might want to work on removing that at the same time.

 

[James M]

No update on original issue rectification? Are you running carbon yet? You may want to consider a large 80% water change to jump start the removal process then run the carbon to clean up the rest. Also if your phosphates are still elevated, you might want to work on removing that at the same time.

The original issue was lossing coral/inverts. I’ve been doing multiple 50% water changes with purified water and running carbon.

 

[Saltyreef]

The original issue was lossing coral/inverts. I’ve been doing multiple 50% water changes with purified water and running carbon.

Ahh good to know. Didnt see a post from you about what youve done yet...last thing i saw was buying carbon and gfo tomorrow.
Whats your parameters now after all the WC's?

 

[James M]

This is the only things I can test at the moment. It’s raining and don’t want to go to the lfs
Ammonia : 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrates: 0.20
phos: 0.2
cal: 400

 

[davocean]

You would benefit greatly from a RO/DI

Big MAC, Mag, alk, Calcium, that is what many focus on most, salifert kits for best accuracy

 

[Saltyreef]

What DAV said.....

And all those water changes and you only have knocked out .5ppm in concentration of nitrates?! Dang. I would focus on doing the method i suggested for a water change or 2. And run GFO for those phosphates. Your hammer will thank you after that if its still kickin. Without seeing the rest of the numbers were only guessing too.

 

[davocean]

Just be careful to not use too much GFO should you use it, like I did the first time resulting in a alk drop...

 

[Ariel V Rosa]

The original issue was lossing coral/inverts. I’ve been doing multiple 50% water changes with purified water and running carbon.

I'm just going to sum things up as best I can. It is worth ZERO (0) time to begin testing and debating any chemical or trace element in a tank that is not using at least reverse osmosis water. Using tap water with some dechlorinators is fine fir keeping some fish, but a no go for any type of anemone and most corals, most inverts will die a very very slow death from all the copper in the water.

If you are not able to or willing to get an RO/DI unit, there are some choices you have to start making. You can purchase your water.. there are many shops that sell water by the bucket even some LFS do. You can also choose to forego any species in your tank sensitive to copper and other metals. Then you also have the chlorine problem, back in the day is was just chlorine, its not any more in most places, they alternate different mixes of chlorine and ammonia called di-chloramines that do not dissipate like the old chlorine did. Chloramines take weeks if not months to break down and leave the water table, usually leaving behind the ammonia.

The point of using RO/DI water is not a point of eepeen or showing off, it is probably more important than any ATO system. RO/DI water give you a point of reference to work with and that point of reference is usually ZERO (0) most salt mixes usually come with advertised levels of the necessary stuff, and the point of water changes is to replace that stuff and get rid of some of the biological waste. (I say some because a proper tank setup will process most of it into the atmosphere naturally)

So the short story, before you go tossing any effort into anything else, a properly working RO/DI unit will probably the most important thing you can purchase in this hobby. It provides you will a well understood point of reference that everything is else is build in top of. The RO/DI unit will provide you with a ZERO point.

 

[Saltyreef]

Just be careful to not use too much GFO should you use it, like I did the first time resulting in a alk drop...

[emoji106] thanks for the additional information. I forgot to add, it should only be used until your sucked down to 0 and can be removed after. Do not run it like carbon.

 

[James M]

What DAV said.....

And all those water changes and you only have knocked out .5ppm in concentration of nitrates?! Dang. I would focus on doing the method i suggested for a water change or 2. And run GFO for those phosphates. Your hammer will thank you after that if its still kickin. Without seeing the rest of the numbers were only guessing too.

Getting ready for a water change now. I need to go to the lfs and order more test kits.

Im just going to sum things up as best I can. It is worth ZERO (0) time to begin testing and debating any chemical or trace element in a tank that is not using atleast reverse osmosis water. Using tap water with some decholorinators is fine fir keeping some fish, but a no go for any type of anemone and most corals, most inverts will die a very very slow searh from all the copper in the water.

If you are not able to or willing to get an RO/DI unit, there are some choices you have to start making. You can purchase your water.. there are many shops that sell water by the bucket even some LFS do. You can also choose to forego any specias in your tank sensitive to copper and othre metals. Then you also have the chlorine problem, back inthe day is was just chlorine, its not any more in most places, they alernate different mixes of chlorine and ammonie called dichloramines that do not dissipate like the old chlorine did. Chloramines take weeks if nit months to break diwn and leabe the water table, usually leaving behind the ammonia.

The point of using RO/DI water is not a point of eepeen or showing off, it is probably more important than any ATO system. RO/DI water give you a point of reference to work with and that point of reference is usually ZERO (0) most salt mixes usually come with advertised levels of the necessary stuff, and the point of water changes is to replace that stuff and get rid of some of the biological waste. (I say some because a proper tank setup will process most of it into the atmosphere naturally)

So the short story, before you go tossing any effort into anything else, a properly working RO/DI unit will probably the most important thing you can purchase in this hobby. It provides you will a well understood point of refernce that everything is else is build in top of. The RO/DI unit will provide you with a ZERO point.

Pretty much summed up the entire thread.

 

[ZaneTer]

@James M

It sounds like things are on the right track. I think from now on it will mainly be a patience game.

Please be VERY careful using GFO in such a small tank, it’s way too easy to strip the water and then you could very easily end up with a lot of dead corals.

Don’t worry about the Xenia, sometimes they melt away or sulk for a little bit. I have had a stall split then had one of the stalks die off even though flow and light was identical and they came from the same piece. If it’s keeping you up at night don’t let it.

Please keep us regularly informed and maybe add a pic once in a while. It’s nice to follow along.