Need help. CO 2 problems

[Yojoe10]

All right my reefing friends I need some help. For six years I've battled very low coral growth and even coral demise with a lot of different species. I blamed about everything I can possibly blame, and tinkered with just about everything I can possibly tinker with. Lighting, more filtration, less filtration, dosing, low nutrient, high nutrient, you name it. I've investigated it.

However over the last few weeks I have been reading a lot about aquarium chemistry especially on the topic of CO2 and pH. I have had extremely high pH from day one in this tank system. During the day it rarely ever falls below 8.4 and if I don't aerate and circulate the crap out of this system it will rise to as high as 8.5-8.65. For a while I dosed kalkwasser at night but that kept pH elevated to the point that in the mornings I would be starting with a pH of 8.3 or 8.4 so I quit dosing to allow pH to drop more so it wouldn't get so high by end of the day.

I've gotten to the point where I feed very heavily almost every day because my system is ultra low nutrient. I used to run a hang on aqua c remora, and phosphate reactor in addition to my miracle mud refugium filled with chaeto. However I have dispensed with The protein skimmer and the phosphate reactor just to see how efficient the Chaeto was at removing organics. In my experiments it has proven to be more than capable of removing nutrients from my system. I harvest chaeto once a week and remove about two fist-fulls. This Cato has been so efficient that I am actually having to dose potassium nitrate, amino acids, and heavy feeding just to keep nitrates between 5 ppm and 10 ppm.

So here is the real question: what in the world can I do to inject more CO2 into my system without spending $300 on a CO2 injector? The aquarium is in the basement so there is not a lot of human activity except when I am down there observing the tank. We are planning to move the tank upstairs sometime this year but until then I really need to see if CO2 deficiency is the reason my tank has been coming up short in so many areas of coral growth and vibrancy.

Also I have read many articles on the relationships between pH oxygen and carbon dioxide. Just so you all know I have already tried putting tons of flow into my system and my pH still never falls below 8.25 (at night) and still gets to as high as 8.5 during the day. I'm hoping you all can give me some answers that I have not heard yet and some things to do that I have not yet tried. Thanks so much!

 

[Oscar47f]

Well if i were you i would try to maintain a PH as close to 8.4 as possible without it really fluctuating much. Corals seem to calcify faster at PHs that high.. PH and Alkalinity are also directly correlated.. so if you have a low alkalinity then PH can fall as well.. Surface agitation and Kalkwasser are both methods to raise the PH normally or so i thought? I know that implementing a Calcium reactor can lower the PH of a system because the liquid is acidic in nature....

 

[Yojoe10]

Sooooo. (*chirp chirp*) nobody? Did I post in wrong place? Lol
Would adding fish counter or exacerbate this issue? I know they consume oxygen which would in turn raise CO2 correct? Or would CO2 actually not increase but just be in better balance with oxygen?

 

[Yojoe10]

Sweet a reply!!! Right as I was giving up. Thanks oscar reading now! [emoji4]

 

[Yojoe10]

Well if i were you i would try to maintain a PH as close to 8.4 as possible without it really fluctuating much. Corals seem to calcify faster at PHs that high.. PH and Alkalinity are also directly correlated.. so if you have a low alkalinity then PH can fall as well.. Surface agitation and Kalkwasser are both methods to raise the PH normally or so i thought? I know that implementing a Calcium reactor can lower the PH of a system because the liquid is acidic in nature....

Sorry for double post. Still trying to figure out this app. [emoji53]

 

[Yojoe10]

Yeah I've read that calcification increases at higher pH as well but I've not observed this in my tank in quite a while. Also I've read that calcium reactor lowers pH but isn't it because of CO2 injection? I'm just wondering if cutting out the middle man (don't really want to get into calcium dosing too heavily since I'm not an sps guy) and going straight for more CO2 if I can once again provide the coral zooxanthellae what they need to get the corals growing and thriving again. I'm just wondering if chaeto is hogging all of the system CO2 faster than corals can.
I thought about running my fuge/light less time (instead of 24/7) but since this is my sole source of nutrient export thought that would be a bad idea? Are these assumptions correct?

 

[Oscar47f]

lol you have an interesting problem here and im not the best reef keeper out there but i do have a friend that does rely souls on mangroves and cholerpa for nutrient export and based on his tank he doesn't run his fuse 24/7 maybe 12 hours at most and he can grow softies and some LPS pretty well id say... And yes the CO2 injection makes the solutions acidic. . Maybe the PH isn't whats bothering the corals? what are your other parameters at?

 

[Yojoe10]

I've been testing weekly every Wednesday and last week parameters were:
Calcium- 450
Alkalinity- 9.3 dkh
Nitrate- 5 ppm
Phosphate- less than 0.1
Mag- 1450
Salinity- 1.026
Temp- 76-79
Think that's about it.

I agree I think maybe pH isn't necessary the problem, but I wonder if the high pH isn't telling me something else that actually is the real culprit (such as CO2 deficiency).
Also what your friend is doing is EXACTLY what I'm striving for: natural filtration and good water chemistry maintained with just water changes ( and perhaps very modest supplementation) for a reef system rich in soft coral, LPS coral, zoanthid, and gorgonian growth.

 

[Yojoe10]

Also haven't mentioned any other system stats so I'll list them in case additional info is helpful:
60 gallon cube bare bottom
5 gallon sump with 10 pounds miracle mud and chaeto lit 24/7
1 mp 10 vortech
Rio 2100 return pump
Radion xr30 gen 1 run on coral lab LPS setting at 58 percent for nine hours per day. One hour ramp up/down on each end of photo period.

Thanks again for replies

 

[Oscar47f]

no problem man i just hope we can figure this out... Hmm your parameters look spot on, what salt do you use for your water changes? are you feeding the corals at all? Maybe a chemical warfare problem! i do know my friend has trouble with some species because of the toxins they release !

 

[Yojoe10]

I use Tropic Marin salt. I have started feeding corals heavily starting about a month or so ago. Reef roofs, coral frenzy, pellet food and jumbo mysis for LPS, hikari frozen rotifers, etc. I've always wondered about coral warfare but I'm not sure. It seemed that I had this problem even when using my protein skimmer. I do have three leathers and some xenia in my tank (heard they can be bad for warfare). I just think it's baffling. im tempted to terminate his system and start over lol. Maybe I just need a " Mulligan" lol

 

[Yojoe10]

Here's other livestock:
2 mated ocellaris clowns
4 firefish (two I never see as they hide for fear of being beaten up by other two that dominate)
Mandarin dragonet
Tuxedo urchin
Ricordea
Frogspawn
GSP
Zoas
Xenia
Orange monti digitata (almost dead now. Grew like made about a year or two ago and suddenly died out)
Purple gorgonian

 

[Oscar47f]

I know how you feel its frustrating!!! but im sure when we figure out the problem it'll get better.. What about trace elements? how often do you water change?

 

[Yojoe10]

I don't dose any trace elements. Dosing:
Aminos, potassium nitrate, esv two part and mag when needs it but tank doesn't seem to be consuming it hardly.

I quit doing water changes for months simply because I was trying to see when nitrate and phosphate would rise but it never did. I have now (as of about a month or two ago) instituted bi weekly 15-20 percent water changes just based on my heavy feeding.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I wouldn't worry about pH unless you are seeing excessive precipitation on heaters and such.

Organic carbon dosing will lower pH, if you want, as will more aeration. If more aeration does not, maybe the calibration is off?

For years my tank ran 8.35 to 8.55 without issue.

Supplement alk with baking soda or a CaCO3/CO2 reactor to get a lower pH.

 

[Yojoe10]

Hey Randy thanks for responding!
So you don't think CO2 deficiency could be causing my problems of zero coral growth?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hey Randy thanks for responding!
So you don't think CO2 deficiency could be causing my problems of zero coral growth?

No, corals do not use CO2 directly, they use bicarbonate. Most studies I've seen also suggest calcification is faster at higher pH, not at lower.

 

[jenreefer]

I noticed you only have one mp10 in the tank, is that correct? If this is correct, you would benefit from more powerheads and more random flow. I have a 60 cube with three mp40s at 50%.

 

[Yojoe10]

Oh okay cool. So what is the implication for softies and others that are non calcifying? If a system is CO2 limited how will zooxanthellae get what they need for photosynthesis? Will low CO2 not lower the growth of zooxanthellae and, in turn, the coral itself? Sorry for so many questions I just want to understand my situation better. Thanks!!!

 

[Yojoe10]

I noticed you only have one mp10 in the tank, is that correct? If this is correct, you would benefit from more powerheads and more random flow. I have a 60 cube with three mp40s at 50%.

Yes I do also have a little hydor korralia at the surface to also add surface agitation, but everything is moving seemingly well in my tank so I'm apprehensive about adding anymore powerheads or even turning up the flow on my mp10 which is at about 40 percent (on lagoon mode). I also don't have any sps (mainly leathers, LPS, zoas, and gorgonians with a few ricordea) so that's another reason I'm not blasting them under the water. Surface agitation is good to my eye though. Plus I have an air stone in my sump for additional gas exchange