Need help with ALK and Calcium

Laynrockers · Aug 29, 2015

looking for help here...

I just set up a relatively new tank.. 5-6 months ago. Total water volume
300 gallons. 210 display, 90 sump, 40 frag tank. 300 pds live rock, 30 fish, lots of corals, SPS dominant.

I am having a tough time keeping my ALK and Calcium in check. they drop very rapidly. For instance i dosed and got the CA to 420 and DKH to 7, left town for 8 days and when i got home the ALk was 4.8-5 and Calcium 375ppm.

I am looking to get dosing pump setup ordered this weekend to help curve how fast the corals are absorbing this.

I have been loosing a lot of SPS acros and millies lately, also two large nice acans and a brain ive had for 3 years. The tissue just peels away and they turn white skeletons. There is so much info online and many people jump to conclusions, without facts or supporting info to make sure that is the issue.. what i am left to believe after all my ready is this is the effect of and ALK swing in the tank?

Any help is appreciated.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 29, 2015

Laynrockers said:
looking for help here...

I just set up a relatively new tank.. 5-6 months ago. Total water volume
300 gallons. 210 display, 90 sump, 40 frag tank. 300 pds live rock, 30 fish, lots of corals, SPS dominant.

I am having a tough time keeping my ALK and Calcium in check. they drop very rapidly. For instance i dosed and got the CA to 420 and DKH to 7, left town for 8 days and when i got home the ALk was 4.8-5 and Calcium 375ppm.

I am looking to get dosing pump setup ordered this weekend to help curve how fast the corals are absorbing this.

I have been loosing a lot of SPS acros and millies lately, also two large nice acans and a brain ive had for 3 years. The tissue just peels away and they turn white skeletons. There is so much info online and many people jump to conclusions, without facts or supporting info to make sure that is the issue.. what i am left to believe after all my ready is this is the effect of and ALK swing in the tank?

Any help is appreciated.

If the alk is really getting to 5 dKH, yes that is likely a serious issue. Corals will likely be unable to deposit skeletons properly.

reefndude · Aug 29, 2015

Dosing pumps will certainly help. When I was having low alk issues my millies were hit hardest. Lost 2 colonies and almost lost 3 others. Other sps lost some color. Now that I have alk in check everything has recovered and colored back up.

At the time I had 0 nitrates in the sustem. That didn't help either

Laynrockers · Aug 29, 2015

reefndude said:
Dosing pumps will certainly help. When I was having low alk issues my millies were hit hardest. Lost 2 colonies and almost lost 3 others. Other sps lost some color. Now that I have alk in check everything has recovered and colored back up.

At the time I had 0 nitrates in the sustem. That didn't help either

I also have 0 Nitrates tested again today.. typically i was told this is good.. i have ready a few people now saying it is necessary to have some.. ?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 29, 2015

Getting your alk into the 7-11 dkh range is the #1 priority.

It is possible you are also not providing enough nutrients to the tank, but 0 on a nitrate test doesn't really say that. Do the corals look pale?

I'd start by reading this:

Optimal Parameters for a Coral Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/o...-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley.173563/

Laynrockers · Aug 29, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Getting your alk into the 7-11 dkh range is the #1 priority.

It is possible you are also not providing enough nutrients to the tank, but 0 on a nitrate test doesn't really say that. Do the corals look pale?

I'd start by reading this:

Optimal Parameters for a Coral Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/o...-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley.173563/

I am dosing now to slowly raise up again.. Is that absorption i mentioned above normal for my system. See attached? just seems like a huge drop.. Your articles are by far the most knowledgeable i have read. i want to thank you for spending the time to put together. I am not new to the hobby, so i understand where my parameters should be.. what i don't understand is with 10% -15% weekly water changes with Bio-active Trop marine salt how my level could get so low.. ? I have a fair amount of corals and a lot of SPS.. so i am assuming they are absorbing more then i can replenish with water changes alone?

I wouldn't say anything looks pale, until i can tell they are on there way out and just start loosing tissue..

Also i have chaeto growing like crazy in my sump so i would think i have some Nitrate?

thanks

[/ATTACH]

reefndude · Aug 29, 2015

Laynrockers said:
I also have 0 Nitrates tested again today.. typically i was told this is good.. i have ready a few people now saying it is necessary to have some.. ?

After my test kit started reading nitrates along with stable parameters sps colors improved tremendously.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 30, 2015

Laynrockers said:
I am dosing now to slowly raise up again.. Is that absorption i mentioned above normal for my system. See attached? just seems like a huge drop.. Your articles are by far the most knowledgeable i have read. i want to thank you for spending the time to put together. I am not new to the hobby, so i understand where my parameters should be.. what i don't understand is with 10% -15% weekly water changes with Bio-active Trop marine salt how my level could get so low.. ? I have a fair amount of corals and a lot of SPS.. so i am assuming they are absorbing more then i can replenish with water changes alone?

Water changes will not be able to maintain alkalinity in a tank like yours unless you change 20-50% PER DAY.

Even without any hard corals, a tank with good coralline growth can loose 2 dKH per day, and with hard corals growing well it can be a lot more than that.

Here's a graph of what water changes accomplish in a typical tank, and yours would likely be on the higher demand side:

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

from it:

Figure 22. Alkalinity as a function of time when performing daily water changes equivalent to 0% (no changes), 15% and 30% of the total volume each month (in other words, 0%, 0.5% and 1% per day). In this example, alkalinity is present at 4 meq/L (11 dKH) at the start and is depleted at a low rate of 0.2 meq/L per day.

Figure 23. Alkalinity as a function of time when performing very large daily water changes of 0% (no changes), 5%, 10%, 15% and 30% of the total volume EACH DAY. In this example, alkalinity is present at 4 meq/L (11 dKH) at the start and is depleted at a low rate of 0.2 meq/L per day.

Figure 24. Alkalinity as a function of time when performing very large daily water changes of 0% (no changes), 15%, 30% and 50% of the total volume EACH DAY. In this example, alkalinity is present at 4 meq/L (11 dKH) at the start and is depleted at a moderately high rate of 1 meq/L per day.

skrivan · Oct 4, 2015

What's the best alkalinity solution? I have b-ionic and was wondering if there's something better. I can't seem to get it high enough and I dose daily. I have 275 total gallons, use coral pro salt and w/c frequently enough. Calcium is usually ok. Mag is also ok.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 5, 2015

There's really nothing that is going to be more effective at raising alkalinity than the type of ingredients in two part systems such as B-ionic.

What is your alkalinity now and how high do you want it?

How much B-ionic are you dosing now?
How would your characterize the aquarium in terms of calcifying organisms like hard corals?

skrivan · Oct 5, 2015

wow....a reply form the EXPERT! thanks for taking an interest in my problem.

Again, I have 275 total volume (minus 100 lbs rock and sand). DT is 200 gal and sump is 75.

I measure my Alk and calcium with a Hannah Checker electronic device. It read 90 ppm yesterday and that was 4 hours after a 25% w/c. I dose daily 60 ml total and it drops it at 15 ml 4x per day. Same for the calcium, staggered by a couple of hours. I also dose "Strontium and Molybdenum" at a low dose, 2x per week. I dose "trace elements" as well, according to the package instructions since I really cant test for these. My magnesium is typically in the 'good range' according to your "Parameter Chart". Ill have to check the calcium again but it is almost always in the good range. I'll check everything that I can test for tonight. My ammonia, nitrates, nitrites are always 0,0,0.

My SPS Acro don't really grow much and in fact I have found these to be hard to keep colored. I was thinking I had them in the wrong places (too close to the Radion lights?). Zoas and palys do really well. Torches are great. Bubble is great. Definitely struggle with the SPS.

I guess the obvious thing would be to increase the dose on alkalinity and calcium. It just seems like a whole lot of chemical going in there......

I dont have a calcium reactor but I'm not opposed to getting one.

thanks again.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 5, 2015

That dose of B-ionic is only providing about 0.5 dKH of alk per day. That's nit much at all. Many people dose 1-4 dKH per day.

S you can definitely dose more per day. I'd try upping it to 75 mL per day (75 mL each part) for a few days and see what that does to alkalinity.

skrivan · Oct 5, 2015

Thanks Randy---I will try this. If I end up moving to 100 mL per day, it looks like it would go through almost a gallon per month. Even at that level its less than you suggest. I gotta find a place to get this in larger quantity!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 5, 2015

B-ionic is a very good product, but if cost becomes an issue, you can make your own.

malira · Oct 6, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
B-ionic is a very good product, but if cost becomes an issue, you can make your own.

How do you make your own?

My Cal is 420 and Mag 1400.
Alk is 7.2 to 7.3 I would like to raise it to @ 8. Not quite as drastic as the OP.
Would ESV Liquid carbonate buffer or b-ionic Part 1 be best?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2015

I have a DIY recipe that you can use, or you can buy the ingredients from a place like Dr Foster and Smith or BRS and follow their directions (BRS uses my recipe).

Here's the DIY:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2015

malira said:
My Cal is 420 and Mag 1400.
Alk is 7.2 to 7.3 I would like to raise it to @ 8. Not quite as drastic as the OP.
Would ESV Liquid carbonate buffer or b-ionic Part 1 be best?

I'd just use regular B-ionic for that and make it a regular thing to dose both parts approximately equally.