Need help with problem occurring in my reef tank

Kyle Sicard · Mar 21, 2016

Hey Randy,
I was hoping you could shed some light on an issue I'm having with my reef tank. I set the tank up in the beginning of January, the set-up is a 150g DT w/ a 35g frag tank plumbed inline to the same sump. Basically I'm having a lot of problems keeping coral, I upgraded from a 75g so all my coral was in a holding tank during the transfer and ever since I transferred everything over the coral has been withering away or is just extremely unhappy. All the Zoas either stay closed or only open half way, while all the LPS and SPS has just died off slowly over a few weeks to a month. I lost over half my coral and I'm not sure why. All the fish and inverts such as starfish and shrimp are happy as can be.

I was hoping you could shed some light on some sort of water chemistry phenomenon that might be occurring causing all my problems with coral. As a test I bought some cheap $10 frags to make sure it wasn't an issue with my coral which are seemingly pest free. The same problem persisted with the new frags as well. I thought maybe if I just gave the tank some time since it is a new system that the problems would go away but not the tank has been setup almost 4 months and I still cant buy new coral with the issues I'm having that seems to affect all types of coral.

I've already checked my RODI unit to make sure chlorine and chloramines weren't getting through so I've ruled that out. Prior to setting the tank up I did give about half of my rock a muriatic acid bath, but I followed all the instructions I found to the letter. I used baking soda to neutralize the acid and I thoroughly sprayed the rock off with a hose and let air dry. Also I've ruled out lighting to be the cause since my frag tank and the display tank are using different types of lighting which i've replicated the same issue under either type of lighting.

In terms of water parameters my tank is being maintained at:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0ppm
Nitrates: 0.5 ppm
Phosphate: 0.02ppm
Calcium: 440-450ppm
Alkalinity: 8.2DKH
Magnesium: 1450ppm

I maintain these levels with a auto doser, carbon/gfo reactors, bubble king protein skimmer. The nitrates and phosphates are a bit on the low side but that is to be expected since the tank is fairly new w/ a light bio load.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions on what might be happening water chemistry wise.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2016

I do not see anything chemistry wise.

Do you dose organic carbon?

Sometimes folks have issues that do not have an obvious explanation, and it can be very frustrating.

I think sometimes there may be a bacteria infestation that is not visible but which can bother corals.

There might also be some sort of toxin in the water. If you have not replaced the GAC recently, I'd try that.

The RO/DI effluent is 0 ppm TDS?

In case the kits are wrong, I might let the nutrients rise a bit. The drawback to that is usualyl more algae or browning corals, so watch for that.

Are you dosing any trace elements?
Water changes?

Kyle Sicard · Mar 22, 2016

No carbon dosing, I dont have a big enough bioload yet to justify carbon dosing. I run ROX 0.8 carbon in a reactor and the RODI effluent is indeed 0 TDS. I'm not dosing any trace elements and I do 25g water changes every 2 weeks.

Its just frustrating since I've been keeping saltwater reef tanks for 10 years, I've never had issues like I'm having now. It's just odd that I'm doing everything right and still having these issues.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2016

Kyle Sicard said:
No carbon dosing, I dont have a big enough bioload yet to justify carbon dosing. I run ROX 0.8 carbon in a reactor and the RODI effluent is indeed 0 TDS. I'm not dosing any trace elements and I do 25g water changes every 2 weeks.

Its just frustrating since I've been keeping saltwater reef tanks for 10 years, I've never had issues like I'm having now. It's just odd that I'm doing everything right and still having these issues.

Yes, I understand how frustrating it can be.

Kyle Sicard · Mar 22, 2016

I did have one idea that I'd like your opinion on, do you think paying for a triton test might be of any use? From what I understand they will test for pretty much everything and that may reveal some issue that I'm not currently testing for.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2016

Kyle Sicard said:
I did have one idea that I'd like your opinion on, do you think paying for a triton test might be of any use? From what I understand they will test for pretty much everything and that may reveal some issue that I'm not currently testing for.

They test for many inorganic ions (nothing organic, no nitrate or alkalinity), and it might be useful if the problem is something like copper. It can't hurt and might help, but to be honest, I've not seen many people track down what they consider to be a serious problem with corals from Triton results, though lots of people find things they choose to take some sort of action on (dosing or eliminating).

Rybren · Mar 22, 2016

I feel for you. About four years ago, my 4-year-old 75G tank looked fantastic. My corals were growing like gangbusters and the colonies were huge. Then STN happened.

Over the course of about 7 or 8 months, almost all of my corals died despite my best efforts to stem the flow of death. When all was said and done, I had lost all of my SPS, all but 3 of my LPS (and they were looking pretty bad), and almost all of my leathers, shrooms, and zoas. None of my fish or inverts were affected.

I could never identify a cause for the massive losses, but the general consensus from the internet experts and a highly respected LFS was that some type of pathogen was responsible. The losses stopped as inexplicably as they started.

Had something like Triton been available, I would have taken advantage of it; if for no other reason then to eliminate a chemical cause.

Good luck to you and I hope that you solve your mystery.

Kyle Sicard · Mar 22, 2016

Thanks guys, I guess my only option seems to try a triton test in the hopes that it will find out something is fundamentally wrong and to also give the tank some more time to correct itself.

Thanks Rybren, its helpful to hear that others have come across similar issues. It's just baffling that even zoas are ticked. They are the only coral thats not completely withering away, albeit some won't open and some only open halfway.

I'm going to continue to increase my organics (no3 and po4), its just that its going to be a slow process since I QT all new fish for a month or 2 depending if some type of disease pops up.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2016

Kyle Sicard said:
Thanks guys, I guess my only option seems to try a triton test in the hopes that it will find out something is fundamentally wrong and to also give the tank some more time to correct itself.

Thanks Rybren, its helpful to hear that others have come across similar issues. It's just baffling that even zoas are ******. They are the only coral thats not completely withering away, albeit some won't open and some only open halfway.

I'm going to continue to increase my organics (no3 and po4), its just that its going to be a slow process since I QT all new fish for a month or 2 depending if some type of disease pops up.

Have you reviewed the system in your mind to be sure there are no metal parts being used in it? Copper might cause some of the issue you mention. Running a Boyd Polyfilter for a bit to see if it helps and./or changes color might be a good idea.

Kyle Sicard · Mar 22, 2016

That was one of my first thoughts that maybe something metallic was being leached into the tank, but I've scoured the system and checked everything and I don't see any issues. For awhile I thought maybe using primer for the pvc could of been the issue or maybe the putty epoxy I used on the rocks was leaching out. I checked online via a google search and both of those came back with others using them without issues. The only thing I haven't checked is the inside of my vortech pumps and jebao return pump to see if anything was rusting. I've seen online where some people had vortech pumps that rusted and causing issues in the tank. The vortechs are fairly new so I haven't checked inside of them because I don't see them rusting when there not even a year old yet.

I just had an idea while I was typing this up. I did a very poor job at hanging my sunpower fixture over the frag tank and ended up drilling a dozen or so holes into the ceiling (my own stupidity at work) and I have found particles from the dry wall/ceiling on top of the fixture which also means that some probably got inside my open topped frag tank. Do you think these particles could have caused the issue? I just checked and there seems to be more particles on top of the fixture so in other words this process repeats and isn't just a one time thing.

I'm going to look into that poly filter you mentioned, is there any other way to test for metals? I prefer test kits over something like a color changing filter pad, but if you think its accurate and worth a try I will pick one up. I could be wrong but wouldn't my cleaner shrimp, crabs, snails, sea urchins, and my 2 linkia star fish be dieing if there was metals present in the tank?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2016

Kyle Sicard said:
That was one of my first thoughts that maybe something metallic was being leached into the tank, but I've scoured the system and checked everything and I don't see any issues. For awhile I thought maybe using primer for the pvc could of been the issue or maybe the putty epoxy I used on the rocks was leaching out. I checked online via a google search and both of those came back with others using them without issues. The only thing I haven't checked is the inside of my vortech pumps and jebao return pump to see if anything was rusting. I've seen online where some people had vortech pumps that rusted and causing issues in the tank. The vortechs are fairly new so I haven't checked inside of them because I don't see them rusting when there not even a year old yet.

I just had an idea while I was typing this up. I did a very poor job at hanging my sunpower fixture over the frag tank and ended up drilling a dozen or so holes into the ceiling (my own stupidity at work) and I have found particles from the dry wall/ceiling on top of the fixture which also means that some probably got inside my open topped frag tank. Do you think these particles could have caused the issue? I just checked and there seems to be more particles on top of the fixture so in other words this process repeats and isn't just a one time thing.

I'm going to look into that poly filter you mentioned, is there any other way to test for metals? I prefer test kits over something like a color changing filter pad, but if you think its accurate and worth a try I will pick one up. I could be wrong but wouldn't my cleaner shrimp, crabs, snails, sea urchins, and my 2 linkia star fish be dieing if there was metals present in the tank?

Drywall is typically calcium sulfate stuck between layers of paper, so I think it not super likely the white particles are the issue.

fab · Mar 23, 2016

Do any of you use UV sterilization? I understand that it could help if the problem is any kind of single cell pathogen.

I believe UV may not work on multicell critters.

And what about ozone?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 23, 2016

fab said:
Do any of you use UV sterilization? I understand that it could help if the problem is any kind of single cell pathogen.

I believe UV may not work on multicell critters.

And what about ozone?

Ozone, as used by typical reef applications, does not sterilize the water since the doses and contact times are too short.

fab · Mar 23, 2016

Thanks. I was not sure if it would kill any pathogens.

Greenstreet.1 · Mar 23, 2016

Are these tanks new or used ?

Kyle Sicard · Mar 23, 2016

The DT which is a 48x24 is new, while the frag tank is used. I bought the frag tank brand new last year and had it hooked up on my previous system.

Greenstreet.1 · Mar 23, 2016

Ok was just wondering if something was used in the tank that could be causing the problems.

armspar · Mar 23, 2016

A uv sterilizer helps only when new pathogens are introduced because they float around the water column. Pathogens that are living in the tank attach them selfs to the rock and sand and never have contact with the uv. I feel running a uv sterilizer is useless unless you have one that has slow flow for maximum contact and more tan one are needed to have an impact. Are you using premade saltwater or mixing at home

Kyle Sicard · Mar 23, 2016

mixing at home, all RO filters are up to date and are at 0 tds and no chlorine/chloramines which i confirmed with some test kits/inline tds meter.

Cory · Mar 25, 2016

A long time ago, i discovered things dying in my tank. It was the test kit. Alkalinity to be exact. 1.135 grams of baking soda is 10dkh in 1 gallon of pure water.