Need help with sump design.

[saltines]

Need help with sump design. Im struggling to understand the concept of flow/baffle height/evaporation/skimmers. This is my first tank and im almost water ready but im struggling in the design/function of my sump. The display tank is a 180g tank with a 40g breeder as a sump. I have chosen to go with a sro 3000 skimmer. I had set up a small basic design (skimmer>fuge>return) which im sure might function but i want to improve/correct it.

Here is the way i understand it. Water drops down from the overflows. The skimmer needs to sit in about 6-6.5 inches of water that is why i included a stand in the design.It then flows into the fuge along with skimmed water. I will have rocks and macroalgea in the fuge. It will then flow into the return section and get pumped back into the display with an external 1200 gph pump.

Ok so first of all i just went with 10 inch baffles because that seems to be the "norm". Is it possible to set the first baffle from the skimmer at 6 or so inches so it would eliminate the stand? It would give me more room to remove the skimmer cup from my stand without reaching further up. But since the water in the fuge is set at 10 inches i dont think it would work. The fuge height im not to concerned about but as i go into the return section i have some questions about that as well. Since im running an external pump do i just make the return any size i want? I plan on incorporating an auto top off in the design later. With a 1200gph pump i should be getting around 780gph after head loss which is 4.3 times DT volume. I read around and 3-5 DT volume is optimal for sump flow. I am running a bean animal setup with my overflows. I still dont get how evaporation plays into this. Need some input from people that know what theyre actually doing. help

 

[mcarroll]

Remember that virtually all elements of your "basic" design are not standard as you say, but generic. In other words, designed for no particular instance. Generic may be ok for peanut butter, but for your sump your should build what you need.

With this in mind, scrap the baffles completely. 40 gallons is small for a 180, so scrap the fuge as well. Plumb a separate fuge onto the system if that's a real priority vs "standard". (Call me back if you can get a 75 in there.)

You're now down to what you really need - skimmer + as much water as you can fit. Use your skimmer stand and an easy-to-move ATO setup to adjust the sump's water level as needed.

Let me know if that all makes sense!

-Matt

 

[saltines]

I built the stand around the sump so removing it and replacing with another is not as easy as it sounds. The fuge is not necassary but what else am i going to do with the space in the middle.

 

[joekidwell]

Just an idea if you like how I did mine.

 

[VicD81]

If you plan to do a Bi-level the shorter one should be the second chamber if not its all just going to be the same level as the last baffle, but your fuge should hold as much water as possible. Your second chamber will not work if you plan to keep substrate in the fuge. The water should go over under over like the bubble trap after your skimmer (that's a good bubble trap design). Lastly you only really need one bubble trap which would be right before the return pump and just one baffle to separate the skimmer and fuge sections. Hope that helps. Here is a pic of mine.

 

[VicD81]

Here is a good read.

http://www.melevsreef.com/articles/what-sump

 

[saltines]

So i came up with something like you mentioned. After some reading i kind of see some contradictory statements regarding that article.
1. Turn the skimmer’s output away from the next zone, so the micro bubbles will have to go around the skimmer before entering the bubble trap. Longer contact time in the water forces these to rise and pop.
I thought the rule of thumb is to point the skimmer output away from the first chamber to maximize skimming efficiency. Ive never owned a skimmer but i have a basic concept of they work. I see people post that they also get microbubbles from the skimmer output. So if i have my sump go from skimmer>fuge>return where is the best place to dump my skimmer output. The skimmer section will reduce efficiency, the fuge section needs calm flow, and the return section might introduce more bubbles after the bubble trap.
2. The return section needs to be big if possible. This section varies due to evaporation, so the more water volume it holds, the longer you can be away from your tank and still have enough water to avoid burning up the return pump. It should be large enough to run for two or three days unattended.r
Regarding the return section, I thought its a better choice to make this compartment smaller. Assuming im running this section with an ATO then it would be beneficial to have a smaller return section so that the ato refills more frequently at shorter volumes. This in turn helps avoid changes in salinity as compared to topping off in larger volumes.
3.The bubble trap should be located after the area that contains the most bubbles. Normally, that would be where the water enters the sump and your protein skimmer is located. Microbubbles abound in this zone, so the bubble trap would be set up next, to prevent these from continuing through to the refugium and/or return section. If you have a refugium next, you'll need one more baffle between the refugium and the return section. All four baffles should be the same height in this setup.Most of the traps ive seen are located next to the skimmer section, is there any reason in particular why its better or why chose to have it after the fuge?(in a 3 compartment sump)?. I wouldnt mind having 2 traps in place on both sides of the fuge unless there is no benefit to the cost of course.

I might get rid of the first set of baffles if microbubbles arent that big of an issue but ive never seen them before so i dont know. If i do that then i could run with a similar setup like yours vic. This is my first tank as i mentioned so i need a bit of direction. Heres basically the same rendering as my first but with the correct baffles..

 

[saltines]

1. Turn the skimmer’s output away from the next zone, so the micro bubbles will have to go around the skimmer before entering the bubble trap. Longer contact time in the water forces these to rise and pop.
2. The return section needs to be big if possible. This section varies due to evaporation, so the more water volume it holds, the longer you can be away from your tank and still have enough water to avoid burning up the return pump. It should be large enough to run for two or three days unattended
3.The bubble trap should be located after the area that contains the most bubbles. Normally, that would be where the water enters the sump and your protein skimmer is located. Microbubbles abound in this zone, so the bubble trap would be set up next, to prevent these from continuing through to the refugium and/or return section. If you have a refugium next, you'll need one more baffle between the refugium and the return section. All four baffles should be the same height in this setup

Here are the statements in the melevs reef section for some reason it had a different font color that doesnt appear here. Or you can simply highlight my post to read everything. sorry

 

[VicD81]

1. Yes point it away from the baffle. Depending on your skimmer some produce micro bubbles some don't. If you have a slower flow throughout your entire sump you'll have a more effective skimmer and fuge. Your DT flow should not come from just the return pumps. The majority should be from power heads so you can afford to dial it down.
2. If you have an ATO I dont see why the size of your return section matters. As long as its big enough to fit what you need to put in there. If your not using an ATO then you shouldn't go on Vacation. :loco:
3. I made the mistake of making my last baffle a little short so when I have the water level higher than the last baffle I get very few bubbles in the return section but they just float to the top and dont make it into the pump, and thats with the pump on full blast! The prob with that is i end up with a build up on the surface of the water. Hopefully when I have it all set up I can drop the water level and make it just turbulent enough to stir up the surface and still get no bubbles. SO... The only reason I didnt want that fist bubble trap is because you lose 2.5" in your fuge and its just for redundancy. That last bubble trap takes care of business.

As for the pic the 3rd baffles are necessary. That's what directs the small amount of bubbles that do make it through to the top and away from the pump.



There is also a different set up. You can put your return in the middle with the fuge and skimmer in opposite sides. This way you can plumb 2 drains and you can control the flow through the fuge but need to have full drain to the skimmer just in case the other gets clogged.

 

[Chetrod]

You wouldn't need three baffles on the skimmer section since it's going to run through your refugium then through those 3 baffles before your return pump.

Mine is a little different than everyone else's but I built it for my specific needs.

 

[VicD81]

Wow thats a funky design. Guessing the bottom right pipe is the return but what is the top right one for?

 

[Chetrod]

Wow thats a funky design. Guessing the bottom right pipe is the return but what is the top right one for?

Told you it was different LOL. The pipe on the top right is connected to a 35G tub that holds the top off water. Have a JBJ ATO connected to it.

 

[VicD81]

Nice

 

[saltines]

So from what im seeing i only need one bubble trap. I get it now i think.. i need either 3 baffles or 1 going to my skimmer to my fuge. If i add 1 baffle there i can set my skimmer water level height and divide the fuge/skimmer at the same time. If i add 3 baffles i get the benefit of an extra bubble trap(overkill?). I cant add only two baffles because the fuge bed will clog up the passage if i use an over under double baffle from skim to fuge. Its also impossible to use two baffles because the only other way is setting it up the opossite way which would be under over double baffle from skim to fuge. But then i wouldnt have a constant skim level height right? Not to mention its also a poor bubble trap. I plan to run an ATO with my fuge in the return section so it wont be very big. Then its only a cost vs necessity factor for having two traps since space wont really be an issue. I also plan on tee'ing off my return at the pump and dumping excess back into the sump. That way i can regulate flow to the display tank without restricting the pump/giving it a hard time. I think ill set all water levels at the same height.

 

[NanaReefer]

My simple sump with bubble trap.

 

[VicD81]

You got it! Check out the pic I posted I also tee'd off the manifold. I was originally going to use an external pump but went with a DC.

 

[NanaReefer]

My baffles are 8" where's yours are 10". I've no need for a skimmer stand & leaves plenty of room for back flow from the DT

 

[Dalmatia]

This is my first sump and works great, just I'd do the last piece of glass on each baffle 1" less than it's front piece

 

[saltines]

Nana my skimmer needs an optimal water level of 6 to 6.5 inches to operate efficiently. I want to have taller baffles to get a little more benefit from extra water volume. At 10 inch baffles i still have a bit of play room on top of my skimmer with the 3 inch stand. Im not necessarily concerned with back flow i should have enough room for that. Right now im leaning towards making a simple one like vic and nanas. As for Dalmatias sump i was also thinking about where i can add some rubble like in your media section. But since i will be running an external pump i might place more rock in that area.

 

[VicD81]

I've got my baffles at 10" with 1" teeth so 11" in total and when I shut everything off I still have plenty of room.