Hi all. I have a 90 gal reef tank that I started 9 months ago. I've been in fresh water planted tanks for years but have always wanted to do saltwater. When I started up luckily I was helped by someone with extensive experience with the hobby. Any way here's my problem. About all I can grow or keep alive in the tank besides fish are leathers, softies and anemones. I have lost zioanthids, acans and several other coral. I continually look for the problem but need some thoughts from more experienced people. Filtration system is 1 40 gal sump with filter socks, refugium, protein skimmer. I have two radion LED lights. MY phosphates are running > 200 with hanna ultra low checker. My alk is about 7.5. Ca also runs a little low. Nitrates are 30 PPM which I know is high. I started dosing Vodka according to the instruction from Nathan Watson. I've been dosing 3 weeks and my parameters have not changed. I have increased according to instruction, testing everyday and I'm now dosing 2.5 ml per day. I don't know if I should keep going or stop and go another route. Also I'm getting ready to put on a CA reactor to try and up my alk and C. I have an apex system that I plan on monitoring PH of tank and the reactor. Any suggestions? Also my Mg trends to run high as well. I'd appreciate any suggestions because I'm at a lose right now. Thanks.
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RJinPV
Active Member
I converted from freshwater about 4-5 years ago. Reef tanks are so much more interesting. Your phosphate and nitrate levels are high, as you acknowledged, but if they are that high I would expect a lot of algae. Do you have a lot of algae? Whenever I lose zoas it is due to algae overtaking them. Another piece of information the experts (I'm not one) will want is the exact lighting situation. What kind of Radions do you have? What intensity and duration are you running?
Are you dosing daily for calcium and hardness?. That would keep those levels up. One last note on vodka dosing. I've never done it and probably should read Watson's thread. I have used Red Sea's NoPox solution which is probably very similar. You should double check your dosing levels because they seem low compared to my experience with NoPox. For my 55 gal tank I would dose 5ml per day when the nitrates were as high as yours are.
Are you dosing daily for calcium and hardness?. That would keep those levels up. One last note on vodka dosing. I've never done it and probably should read Watson's thread. I have used Red Sea's NoPox solution which is probably very similar. You should double check your dosing levels because they seem low compared to my experience with NoPox. For my 55 gal tank I would dose 5ml per day when the nitrates were as high as yours are.
Coralreefer1
Valuable Member
Hi and welcome to R2R first off!
Now, to try and help you by offering words of advice.
Ok, first of all, you really don’t need to employ the vodka approach which may be directly related to your not being able to keep Zoanthids. If your nitrates are high, you are probably over feeding or not doing water changes as frequently as you should. Moreover, make sure you clean your skimmer to ensure optimal filtration.
Next, you don’t need a calcium reactor...at least not yet anyways. You don’t have any corals, that I know of, that require substantial calcium that a simple water change can’t take care of. I think you are panicking and need to take a step back and relax. If you we’re heavily into hermatypic corals like SPS dominant and some LPS, then you may want to research the pros and cons of a calcium reactor. That is an expense you may not need.
You say your magnesium is high and calcium is low! What are your numbers?
Good luck and hope I have helped you in some positive way!
Now, to try and help you by offering words of advice.
Ok, first of all, you really don’t need to employ the vodka approach which may be directly related to your not being able to keep Zoanthids. If your nitrates are high, you are probably over feeding or not doing water changes as frequently as you should. Moreover, make sure you clean your skimmer to ensure optimal filtration.
Next, you don’t need a calcium reactor...at least not yet anyways. You don’t have any corals, that I know of, that require substantial calcium that a simple water change can’t take care of. I think you are panicking and need to take a step back and relax. If you we’re heavily into hermatypic corals like SPS dominant and some LPS, then you may want to research the pros and cons of a calcium reactor. That is an expense you may not need.
You say your magnesium is high and calcium is low! What are your numbers?
Good luck and hope I have helped you in some positive way!
KrisReef
10K Club member
What you are seeing isn't unusual for a 9-month-old tank, but your refugium doesn't seem to be working fast enough to remove nitrates and phosphate. I would guess that your bioload is too large for the fuge to keep up with, but you did not mention how many fish you have or how much you are feeding them. Without knowing this, I would guess that you are overfeeding the system and have at least a few fat and happy fish?
Also, new systems take a while to establish cryptic sponges and other microfauna that will make hard skeleton coral keeping more do-able.
And phosphates will take some time to lower those levels, just keep doing what you are with vodka and they can go down over time. Did you start with "used" live rock? Rock can be a sink for phosphate and once it is there it can take some time to remove it. You may need to go more aggressive after the phosphate if you have a lot adhering to your substate, and if you are in a hurry to add hard corals?
I think I would suggest adding a polyfilter and carbon filtration to your tank if you don't have that already, as soft corals are known to release chemicals into the water to compete with nearby corals.
HTH. Gl
edit:
And Like Coralreefer1 noted;
Welcome to REEF2Reef!
Also, new systems take a while to establish cryptic sponges and other microfauna that will make hard skeleton coral keeping more do-able.
And phosphates will take some time to lower those levels, just keep doing what you are with vodka and they can go down over time. Did you start with "used" live rock? Rock can be a sink for phosphate and once it is there it can take some time to remove it. You may need to go more aggressive after the phosphate if you have a lot adhering to your substate, and if you are in a hurry to add hard corals?
I think I would suggest adding a polyfilter and carbon filtration to your tank if you don't have that already, as soft corals are known to release chemicals into the water to compete with nearby corals.
HTH. Gl
edit:
And Like Coralreefer1 noted;
Welcome to REEF2Reef!
Deborah Armay
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Thanks. I do have some Cyanobacteria on my rooms. I do weekly 20 gal water changes and siphon the sand. I’ll check the lights more closely. I have them running at 60% with a hour ramp up n down and 8 hrs at 60%. I’m thinking eventually I will get to ur dose of vodka but the formula I’m following has me using it by .5 ml every week.
Howdy from Texas
Besides the high N and P levels and unknown lighting par levels in areas of your tank we need to consider other factors.
First work on bringing down your N and P levels. Are you making your own saltwater? Is it free of N and P? If so then run GFO or some other phosphate absorption material/media. In your sump you can place more rock or some sort of MarinePure media to encourage more nitrate processing bacteria to grow. Over feeding can be an issue if you have a lot extra food or too many fish. This is esp true if feeding pellets or flake.
Now we have the coral issue. It could be your lights, but what you have are good enough to grow anything if they are placed where they get proper lighting. Your high mag level could be an issue if they are over 1450 with low calcium. It is possible to raise your cal and alk levels by switching to a salt with higher levels. I personally mix both RedSea Coral Pro and the RedSea blue bucket 50/50. I would shoot for 8 to 9 alk. Once you have it where you want, then keeping it stable is the key for those hard to keep corals.
Next we have the battle between your leathers, softies and other corals. They do battle by exuding substances that hinder and can kill other corals. Macro algaes can even do this. If you are not running a carbon reactor you might think about starting one up to filter the substances out of the water.
Hope that some of this is helpful. Hang in there and with help here, you will figure it out.
Besides the high N and P levels and unknown lighting par levels in areas of your tank we need to consider other factors.
First work on bringing down your N and P levels. Are you making your own saltwater? Is it free of N and P? If so then run GFO or some other phosphate absorption material/media. In your sump you can place more rock or some sort of MarinePure media to encourage more nitrate processing bacteria to grow. Over feeding can be an issue if you have a lot extra food or too many fish. This is esp true if feeding pellets or flake.
Now we have the coral issue. It could be your lights, but what you have are good enough to grow anything if they are placed where they get proper lighting. Your high mag level could be an issue if they are over 1450 with low calcium. It is possible to raise your cal and alk levels by switching to a salt with higher levels. I personally mix both RedSea Coral Pro and the RedSea blue bucket 50/50. I would shoot for 8 to 9 alk. Once you have it where you want, then keeping it stable is the key for those hard to keep corals.
Next we have the battle between your leathers, softies and other corals. They do battle by exuding substances that hinder and can kill other corals. Macro algaes can even do this. If you are not running a carbon reactor you might think about starting one up to filter the substances out of the water.
Hope that some of this is helpful. Hang in there and with help here, you will figure it out.
PatW
2500 Club Member
Your phosphate is pretty high as are your nitrates.
Your alk is a little low. It could be bumped up to 8.0 . You should keep calcium over 400.
I would not fool with a calcium reactor and you do not have a high demand system. Dosing 2 part is easier. You can always switch to a reactor later, if you desire.
I guess you are running macro algae, like Chaeto, in your refugium. In order for chaeto to grow you need light that can compete with your display tanks lights. BRS has a series of videos on running chaeto. I run chaeto and it keeps my phosphates and nitrates down so low that I dose nitrates and phosphates to keep my corals going.
To keep Stoney corals, you need intense light of the right spectrum, stable conditions, decent flow, low nitrates below 10 ppm and low phosphates below about .04 ppm or about 14 on the Hanna ulr. I run about 1.5 ppm nitrate and .03 ppm phosphate.
Your alk is a little low. It could be bumped up to 8.0 . You should keep calcium over 400.
I would not fool with a calcium reactor and you do not have a high demand system. Dosing 2 part is easier. You can always switch to a reactor later, if you desire.
I guess you are running macro algae, like Chaeto, in your refugium. In order for chaeto to grow you need light that can compete with your display tanks lights. BRS has a series of videos on running chaeto. I run chaeto and it keeps my phosphates and nitrates down so low that I dose nitrates and phosphates to keep my corals going.
To keep Stoney corals, you need intense light of the right spectrum, stable conditions, decent flow, low nitrates below 10 ppm and low phosphates below about .04 ppm or about 14 on the Hanna ulr. I run about 1.5 ppm nitrate and .03 ppm phosphate.
Deborah Armay
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To add extra requested info. My lights are radios xr30hw. I have my own RO/DI system and I mix with Reef Crystals Instant Ocean salt. I also have large block of marine pure in my refugium. I did start the tank with live rock rom my coworkers tank when he got out other hobby. I feed every other day small amt of pellets and reef raids n rods food.i have a ca reactor that I’m getting ready to start yo to stabilize ca and alk levels. What can I do about my high Mg? I’ve read that u can correct that with different salt. Thanks for all the great info. I’m starting to feel enthusiastic again. I’ve been so discouraged at the loss of my corals.
Deborah Armay
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Yes I have chaeto in my refug. with a light that is set to come on opposite my tank lights. Thanks for the info.
RC salt should mix up at about 1425 mag, 500 cal, 12 alk. Perhaps bigger or more often water changes will bring you closer to what the mix is. The reactor will help to keep things more stable once dialed in.
This link gives some numbers on salt mixes.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2554264&page=10
I dont think RC salt is the issue. You might test your mix before water changes. This will tell you if bigger changes will help.
Deborah Armay
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Great idea. I will test my mix before water change. Currently doing 20 gal once week. Will read up about carbon reactor. Hope it’s not to expensive. Thanks
FishyDP
Active Member
I agree that a calcium reactor is not necessary for your system, yet. For a newer system with softies, kalkwasser may be a decent solution for alk/calc, and to help keep your ph up/stable. Another thought is that the corals you are keeping do not require a ton of PAR. Maybe try dialing down your lights a bit..too much light is worse than too little imo.
Your no3 and po4 levels need to be lowered, agreed. I dosed vodka for several months with very good results. I dosed .5 ml per day in a 125g system, and my no3 dropped from around 40ppm to near undetectable, and po4 nearly undetectable. I would not rely on carbon dosing long term because you do not want to completely strip your system of nutrients. Once I got my nutrient levels in check I weaned off the carbon dosing and stopped completely. I did add 4l of seachem pond matrix to my sump, and this seems to help keep my 180g system well balanced. I do have a fuge with chaeto as well.
One other thought is to run some activated carbon for 24 hours to help clear up any impurities in your water.
Your no3 and po4 levels need to be lowered, agreed. I dosed vodka for several months with very good results. I dosed .5 ml per day in a 125g system, and my no3 dropped from around 40ppm to near undetectable, and po4 nearly undetectable. I would not rely on carbon dosing long term because you do not want to completely strip your system of nutrients. Once I got my nutrient levels in check I weaned off the carbon dosing and stopped completely. I did add 4l of seachem pond matrix to my sump, and this seems to help keep my 180g system well balanced. I do have a fuge with chaeto as well.
One other thought is to run some activated carbon for 24 hours to help clear up any impurities in your water.
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FishyDP
Active Member
What protein skimmer are you using? A good protein skimmer is key when carbon dosing. When you add a carbon source to your water column, you are feeding bacteria that are helping consume no3/po4. The bacteria in turn is skimmed out, along with excess no3/po4. Your skimmer should be working overtime, and you should notice an increase in skimmate production. This has been my experience and understanding of carbon dosing.
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BeejReef
2500 Club Member
Certainly could be water chemistry, but don't allow yourself to scope-lock on that. Could be lighting, could be flow, could be a youngish tank taking a bit longer than most to mature. Surprised to see you struggling with nitrate and phosphate while running a chaeto fuge? Do you have a good light on it? Also could be that some less hardy corals are struggling as you battle to find stability with your alkalinity and calcium levels.
FishyDP
Active Member
I agree with the theory of bouncing water chemistry messing with the health of your corals. This is something to look at..if zoas and shrooms are not surviving there is something fairly extreme going on. Try not to make too big of changes all at once..do it gradually. I mentioned above about your light source as well, those are pretty strong lights for lower light corals. Knowing some more about your equipment will help, such as fuge light and skimmer, powerheads.
FishyDP
Active Member
I just read this again, and missed your dosage the first time...I think 2.5 ml is way too much. As I mentioned, I dosed .5 ml/day on 125g..I am just going off of my research and experience with carbon dosing. I never went above .5 per day, and this was for maybe 4 months. It is easy to want to dose more to see quicker results, but nothing good happens quickly.
If you read this article and use the table it looks like you start off with around 3ml total 5% vinegar for the first 3 days then around 6ml total for the next 4 days then it goes up on a per week basis. There is a table for vodka.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php
I think it takes time to grow the bacteria before you see results. Anyone?????
http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/i...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium
