Need some advice on SPS success

[xCry0x]

Hey all, been putting off asking for help because I like trying to figure stuff out myself. That said, I am raising a white flag.

I have been struggling to get any type of success with SPS for years.

I'll see periods where things are great - I had a birdsnest frag grow to the size of a baseball then RTN and die over a few days.

I had a green slimer frag grow to about 8 inches, then similarly STN and die.

Tank is a RSM 250 -- so ~65g tank.

My tank parameters are:

CA: 440
Alk: 8.0
MG: 1400

Keep my salinity at 35 PPT w/ a calibrated refractometer.

PO4: Hanna ULR test just showed 12 ppb so 0.03 phosphate ballpark
Nitrate: This one makes me feel color blind but with salifert test its one of the shades of light pink that you need to look through the side to figure out -- so in the 0.5-5 range.

My current tank is ~2 years old. I transitioned a bunch of my live rock from my old system to new system when I upgraded to current tank.

I run a doser - so the ALK/CA are stable and have been more or less stable for a long time.

6 months ago I added a chiller so my temp sits right around 79.5-80.5* F. (edited correct temps)

I held off on posting because about 1-2 months ago I started tweaking things a bit. Removed GFO and repurposed reactor as a chaeto reactor.

Around that time, the growth of the sps I had mostly stalled. My PO4 went up marginally -- about a 6 on hannah to the current 12 ish. My Nitrate went up from undetectable to the slight pink hue it has now.

I have 6 small fish - so light bioload. Fairly heavy circulation, with a Gyre & 2 return pumps running at I believe 500 or 700 gph -- can't remember if they are Sicce 3s or not.

Driving me a bit crazy because the amount of effort I have put in, I feel like I should have a huge grown out reef! Instead, I joke with my wife about how I can only buy $5 frags because the majority of them die within 30 days =(

- edit-

Lighting is the stock 6x t5 setup with ATI Bulbs. The RSM light sits about 4" off the water with a plastic shield, no individual reflectors (which usually would be bad but since the light is so close to the water that helps keep the lights from burning everything).

-edit edit-

The specific lights are 36" ATI t5. 1 purple plus, 4x blue plus, 1x aquablue special.

Just ordered new Dec 1, 2017. I usually stagger front 3 then back 3 3 months apart. But at worst they are all only 6 months old.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Hey all, been putting off asking for help because I like trying to figure stuff out myself. That said, I am raising a white flag.

I have been struggling to get any type of success with SPS for years.

I'll see periods where things are great - I had a birdsnest frag grow to the size of a baseball then RTN and die over a few days.

I had a green slimer frag grow to about 8 inches, then similarly STN and die.

Tank is a RSM 250 -- so ~65g tank.

My tank parameters are:

CA: 440
Alk: 8.0
MG: 1400

Keep my salinity at 35 PPT w/ a calibrated refractometer.

PO4: Hanna ULR test just showed 12 ppb so 0.03 phosphate ballpark
Nitrate: This one makes me feel color blind but with salifert test its one of the shades of light pink that you need to look through the side to figure out -- so in the 0.5-5 range.

My current tank is ~2 years old. I transitioned a bunch of my live rock from my old system to new system when I upgraded to current tank.

I run a doser - so the ALK/CA are stable and have been more or less stable for a long time.

6 months ago I added a chiller so my temp sits right around 81-82* F.

I held off on posting because about 1-2 months ago I started tweaking things a bit. Removed GFO and repurposed reactor as a chaeto reactor.

Around that time, the growth of the sps I had mostly stalled. My PO4 went up marginally -- about a 6 on hannah to the current 12 ish. My Nitrate went up from undetectable to the slight pink hue it has now.

I have 6 small fish - so light bioload. Fairly heavy circulation, with a Gyre & 2 return pumps running at I believe 500 or 700 gph -- can't remember if they are Sicce 3s or not.

Driving me a bit crazy because the amount of effort I have put in, I feel like I should have a huge grown out reef! Instead, I joke with my wife about how I can only buy $5 frags because the majority of them die within 30 days =(

I see you run a doser, do you know what your consumption is? If you're running a doser and the corals are consuming it, then something has to be growing. Where in the tank do you have your dosing lines? What lighting do you have over your tank? Any pictures of the system?

 

[xCry0x]

I see you run a doser, do you know what your consumption is? If you're running a doser and the corals are consuming it, then something has to be growing. Where in the tank do you have your dosing lines? What lighting do you have over your tank? Any pictures of the system?

You would logically think that right? =)

I had it up to 100 ml/day of BRS 2 part. Then when I cut off the GFO I saw consumption drop - cut it back to 50 or 60 ml/day. Was seeing alk swing 2 dKH/day if I remember correctly. It has been a while since I paid attention to the swing; I usually just test it and bump dosing slightly if it has dropped from where I try to hold it.

FTS

The big chalices on the right and center grew out mostly in my original tank. The one on the left grew out in this tank but has mostly stalled in the last 3 months.

"Where in the tank do you have your dosing lines?"

While the consumption dropped on its own after taking GFO offline, I did also get a bit more intelligent about the dosing location and timing -- I was dosing ca/alk within 5 mins of eachother and spaced it out so they dose an hour apart to avoid everything just precipitating right off the bat. This was done AFTER the 100ml-> 50 ml change.

I dose into one of the rear chambers; tank is an AIO.

I did have slight uptic in coraline algae growth after stopping GFO. I see it on glass now whereas before my tank was so stripped that I rarely had to clean glass ever. ( I took the GFO offline because I was reading about the detrimental impact of running too low of nutrients ).

 

[xCry0x]

Oh - and the specific lights are 36" ATI t5. 1 purple plus, 4x blue plus, 1x aquablue special.

Just ordered new Dec 1, 2017. I usually stagger front 3 then back 3 3 months apart. But at worst they are all only 6 months old.

Phone is hanging on uploading more pictures for some reason. But I have a milipora that in the past grew like a weed, I actually broke it on accident and fragged it in various places in my tank. I has no growth tips what so ever -- which I usually use as the easy judge of "happy growing corals".

Also have a small 1" tort that is going from unhappily not growing for the past few months to now actively dying. And another unknown smoothskin acro that actually started growing but is now starting to also see some die off.

Both lost their color over a few weeks upon entering my tank and haven't colored up since.

 

[Trevor40]

I would not let my temperature go above 80 F. I have seen a lot of success around 76-78. degrees F.

What is your photoperiod on the lights? I would suggest not going more than 6 hours when running all 6 at a time. 10-12 hours is fine with only 2 bulbs on.

 

[xCry0x]

I'v thought about dropping the temp down.

My photoperiod is about 9 hours, on at 10am off at 7pm. -- the fixture isn't dimmable and it is all 1 channel so cannot control lights independently.

That said, I struggle to see why 6 vs 9 hours would be harmful.

-edit-

I also lied, I have my temp set to 80*. Just went and checked it -- I believe it allows variance of 0.5*. So 80.5 kicks on chiller 79.5 turns it off.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Everything seems fine, other then temp is a bit high.

 

[Trevor40]

6 vs 9 hours is a huge difference when you are talking about acros and the lighting you have!!! Over 6 hours can cause burning or slowed growth especially is the water is not pristine with little changes.

What do your corals look like before they die? Are they looking pale?

Test your Alk daily for awhile to get a good feel how to dial it in so there is barely a daily change.

 

[xCry0x]

Hmm, I'll have to read more on photoperiods. Thanks for the tip there.

As for how they look - it is all different. I have a mili that I fragged at 3 dif levels in my tank and all 3 look exactly the same and all 3 have had 0 growth in months whereas a few months back the same coral was growing like a weed with its original colony.

 

[Seminoles76]

IMO,

In your post you stated you saw up to 2dkh swings daily. Those are substantial swings that can stunt growth/kill any sticks that you have in your tank. The results of those swings sometimes do not manifest in the coral until up to several weeks later. The Alk swings along with nutrient change is enough to cause STN/RTN.

If you were experiencing die off/slow growth prior to the Alk swings I would look at a couple of other things. You stated you used BRS 2 part. That 2 part doesn't come with minor/trace elements. So, if your water change regime is not substantial enough to replace those elements you could be deficient in some of those elements causing slow growth. An ICP test would help you there. The other problem you may have encountered in the beginning causing slow growth could possibly have been low nutrients. You stated the Salifert was clear and you were running low numbers on the Hannah for Po4. That could have been the reason for the slow growth. I would say the low nutrients wouldn't have been a problem if you were feeding fish and corals heavily during that time period.

I would let the system settle out and keep the nutrient numbers the same as you have now. Both No3/Po4 are absolutely fine at those levels. I would also leave the photoperiod as you have it now. Most reefers running T5 probably run between 9-12 hour photoperiod. I have had several ATI T5 tanks and all ran between 9-12 hour photoperiods.

Hope you get it figured out.

 

[Eder]

I totally agree with the alk swings. Best investment I ever made was a calcium reactor. Big expense up front but has kept parameters pristine within .5 change in alk daily once dialed in.

I do disagree with above photoperiod comment from only my personal experience and not scientific proof. I have great growth. Very decent colors (still playing with lighting). I run a photo period of 12 hours including ramp up and down with my kessils.

I have two kessil 360we and a 10 bulb 36” ATI fixture with 6b+ and 4c+

 

[xCry0x]

Someone asked what my daily consumption was -- my swings within a day may be in the 0.3 dKH range between doses. The 2 ish was what I was seeing about a year and a half ago when dosing once a day and figuring out my dosing needs. My tank definitely doesn't swing anywhere close to that between doses -- otherwise this whole thread would be a pretty dumb question =)


I'v debated an ICP test - I was surprised to see how popular they are on this forum. Hadn't heard about them much until I started poking around here.

Appreciate the thoughts on photoperiod also, I did some reading and came to the same conclusion that a 9-12 hour window is fine.

 

[DesertReefT4r]

After reading the OPs posts here is what stood out to me. Temp at 79-80, thats a bit high 80 and I start to freak out. Alks swings while tuning in the dosing, alk needs to super stable. Your lighting is a little on the low side, move it up to 6-8". If the reflector is total junk (which I doubt it is) and the light only has 1 channel I would look to replace it. Making changes like removing or adding nutrient control systems mess with the balance of the tank. ULN is not a good thing imo you want some po4 and no3 corals need it survive.

 

[Eder]

After reading the OPs posts here is what stood out to me. Temp at 79-80, thats a bit high 80 and I start to freak out. Alks swings while tuning in the dosing, alk needs to super stable. Your lighting is a little on the low side, move it up to 6-8". If the reflector is total junk (which I doubt it is) and the light only has 1 channel I would look to replace it. Making changes like removing or adding nutrient control systems mess with the balance of the tank. ULN is not a good thing imo you want some po4 and no3 corals need it survive.

This ^^^^^

 

[xCry0x]

After reading the OPs posts here is what stood out to me. Temp at 79-80, thats a bit high 80 and I start to freak out. Alks swings while tuning in the dosing, alk needs to super stable. Your lighting is a little on the low side, move it up to 6-8". If the reflector is total junk (which I doubt it is) and the light only has 1 channel I would look to replace it. Making changes like removing or adding nutrient control systems mess with the balance of the tank. ULN is not a good thing imo you want some po4 and no3 corals need it survive.

I'm not trying to be critical and I appreciate feedback.

That said. In my OP I said it was stable. I also had posted this clarification...

Someone asked what my daily consumption was -- my swings within a day may be in the 0.3 dKH range between doses. The 2 ish was what I was seeing about a year and a half ago when dosing once a day and figuring out my dosing needs. My tank definitely doesn't swing anywhere close to that between doses -- otherwise this whole thread would be a pretty dumb question =)

As for the lighting.

1) Yes, the reflector is pretty trash.

2) No, you cannot move the lights in a RSM 250.

I'v done fairly extensive reading on this topic -- as I mentioned I try to solve my own problems. The general consensus is that while the light sits way too close to the water, the crap reflector counters that to an extent. Plenty of people have SPS growing near the surface -- I doubt it is a light issue.

The thought in the back of my head for a while is that I need to bite the bullet and do an ICP test.

Was mainly interested in if there was any other thoughts. What really has thrown me off is the seemingly cause and effect relationship between when I quit running GFO and where things are at now.

I had been happily stripping nutrients and trying to keep 0's for years -- not awesome success but I had some sps going. Then I read a bunch about needing nutrients to get better color/growth and how low is good but 0s are bad. So I cut out GFO, raised nutrients SLIGHTLY, then everything went stagnant.

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

Just trying to help, but how often do you make changes to your tank and or have your hands in it? I have seen a trend that the more we mess with our tanks, bad things happen. I do very little to change anything on my tank as is. My hands only enter the tank when it’s very very necessary. In addition I do dose manually every tues, thurs, and sat, and test water those days as well.

I have had a few sps go great then not so great in which depending on what they are, I’ll move them up and down and change their point of reference to flow. But I never change the settings of the tank, if it’s just one or two. Recently I had a war paint scoly start to have tissue loss. I moved it flow to the other one that is doing very well and well she is healing. Now I have no idea why this spot is better or the other was worse, but the fact it’s healing and getting better is huge.

These are very very sensitive ecosystems, they hate change for the most part. Try and limit that as much as possible. I hope if there is any more I can try and help with, please feel free to ask.

Sincerely
Sarah

 

[TexasTodd]

Temp a little high as mentioned.
Why did you drop GFO if it was working and things growing? I agree it looks like your tank doesn't need it, but it was working...
Tank is two years, how old are bulbs?
You could add some LED strips for light beyond running your main bulbs.
Have you checked par with the "plastic shield"? Even a layer of glass cuts PAR big time.
Did the slimer die base up?
Birds Nests often die down low but upper parts stay alive as they get big.

 

[xCry0x]

Temp a little high as mentioned.
Why did you drop GFO if it was working and things growing? I agree it looks like your tank doesn't need it, but it was working...
Tank is two years, how old are bulbs?
You could add some LED strips for light beyond running your main bulbs.
Have you checked par with the "plastic shield"? Even a layer of glass cuts PAR big time.
Did the slimer die base up?
Birds Nests often die down low but upper parts stay alive as they get big.

Why did I drop GFO? Good question, I am wondering if it was a mistake. Poor coloration. I had a starburst monti cap and a red/green grafted cap that were both very muted in colors. When I moved from the RC forum to here, I was bombarded by info around "0s are bad, you want some nutrients." and how GFO can throw things off balance, low nutrients lead to pastel coloration, etc. So I pulled GFO and watched p04 to see what happened - it never really went higher than 0.04 ish -- according to Hannah checker.

It actually seemed good at first, I started seeing more coralline algae growing than I had in a long time. But the corals themselves seemed to stop showing any signs of growth.

Strip light: I had a truelumen light for mainly actinic lighting. The problem with the whole all in one tank w/ the closed top is that you are a bit limited here. Things sit so close to the water that rust from salt spray becomes a big factor. I removed the light after about a year because it was having diodes going out. I'd hate to put a more expensive strip in w/ actual PAR and have it get ruined in the same way.

PAR: I don't have a par meter =) And I doubt my LFS knows what one is.

Bulbs: New within the last 6 months; I usually change them every 6 months but after watching the BRS TV episode on t5 lifespans it seems like that may have been an expensive and unnecessary habit.

Slimer: It started dying from the middle out.

Birds nest: Was a long time ago - it died for unrelated reasons; think that was alk instability from before I had a doser if I remember correctly.

Hello,

Just trying to help, but how often do you make changes to your tank and or have your hands in it? I have seen a trend that the more we mess with our tanks, bad things happen. I do very little to change anything on my tank as is. My hands only enter the tank when it’s very very necessary. In addition I do dose manually every tues, thurs, and sat, and test water those days as well.

Hey - appreciate all thoughts! I am at a loss which is why I am reaching out.

I think like a lot of people, it goes in streaks. Recently I have been very hands off. Water changes are about it unless an urchin knocks something over. I have been at this for about 6 years now -- 2 years with this current tank which was an upgrade from my nano. So I'v definitely learned to try to limit the fiddling -- change something and wait a bit.

I think I have gone through the gambit of random problems over the years =)

- Accidentally removing temp controller probe from tank and cooking everything? Check
- Having calibration fluid go bad and accidentally get salinity off? Check
- Pests? Zoa nudis, monti nudis, red bugs.. check check check
- Nuance algae? Definitely check.
- Horribly low alkalinity? Check
- Stray voltage? Check

Lots of learning -- everything is super stable now though which is why the lack of success has been a bit frustrating.

I think I'll grab a ICP test. Its the only thing I can think of -- something is polluted or off.

If my lights were too strong I'd see burning. If my lights were too weak -- well corals that grew successfully at the exact same spot would not be sitting dormant right now (or the same coral higher/lower in the tank would be at least reacting differently).

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I think your idea to get an ICP test is a good one. On my first ICP test, I was surprised to find all traces coming back 0.0, even though I had a small daily AWC setup.

I am with you in the view that it goes in streaks. My version of this is that our tank's success is like a pendulum. During a portion of the pendulum's arc is a safe zone where corals will survive and thrive. The size of the safe zone differs between softies (huge), LPS (big) and SPS (small). At one end of the arc is high nutrients and the other is low nutrients, and the position of the pendulum represents the nutrient level we are at. Depending on how fast the pendulum moves, it both grows and shrinks the safe zones. Slow movements (of the pendulum) contribute to an expansion of the zones and the corals are able to adapt to extremes. Fast movements shrink the zones (E.g. the SPS safe zone all but disappears). Alk can also be represented on the arc, high alk at the end with high nutrients, low alk at the end with low nutrients. Ditto for light. Make changes slow enough and success is almost always in effect.

Dennis

 

[Reeferguy365]

How often do you do water changes? If not Trace elements then I would say it's your temperature. Sps dont like to high or low of a temp.