Need to identify this quick - losing fish daily

AquAttila · Oct 11, 2021

Hi,

I have no idea what occured, no changes to anything in my tank and have not added any fish for 6 months at least. It started with my clown trigger, and then onto majestic angel now the emperor. Some of the other fish in the tank looks like they have ich - easy to identify. But fish has this cloud over their eyes now and not sure what to do... my main concern is of course saving the expensive fish (i.e. pair of cross hatch and bandit angel). I posted a few pics of the emporer this morning.

adsf430 · Oct 11, 2021

I think you've identified the issue. Cloudy eyes can happen from Ich. Anything at that stage is likely a goner : ( . For the fish who are not, you should put them in a tank running copper ASAP. Only way I've ever saved fish from Ich. I would also test your water for what caused the issue, Ich is always a possibility no matter what measures are taken if the fish get stressed enough, I'm not sure of a way to 100% prevent it. High Nitrate, Phosphate, Nitrite, Ammonia, and rust / electrical issues is what I'd check for. If Any of those are high and you're not sure why, search the rock scape for any rotting food not in plain site. I had an outbreak once due to my eel taking table shrimp into its cave then not eating them.

threebuoys · Oct 11, 2021

While the problem may be ich, it is not due to nitrates, phosphate, ammonia, rust or electrical problems. Ich is a parasite. @Jay Hemdal may be able to share an opinion on what the problem might be.

Uzidaisies · Oct 11, 2021

threebuoys said:
While the problem may be ich, it is not due to nitrates, phosphate, ammonia, rust or electrical problems. Ich is a parasite. @Jay Hemdal may be able to share an opinion on what the problem might be.

But ich can be present without the fish showing signs until something else stresses them enough to lower their immune systems. As I understand it.

adsf430 · Oct 11, 2021

Yea that was my point haha, I'm not claiming electricity creates ich.

Jay Hemdal · Oct 11, 2021

attilak said:
Hi,

I have no idea what occured, no changes to anything in my tank and have not added any fish for 6 months at least. It started with my clown trigger, and then onto majestic angel now the emperor. Some of the other fish in the tank looks like they have ich - easy to identify. But fish has this cloud over their eyes now and not sure what to do... my main concern is of course saving the expensive fish (i.e. pair of cross hatch and bandit angel). I posted a few pics of the emporer this morning.

Can you take some pictures under white light? I can’t make out any details. A short video, also under white light might also help.
Jay

AquAttila · Oct 11, 2021

Guys, appreciate your responses. I will take a pic tomorrow as I had no time today. I do have a hospital tank but I feel that stresses them out more ... the crazy thing is that I have a QT process and have gone through copper, etc. for 6 - 8 weeks before introducing fish into my DT. I check my parameters weekly and no issue with water chemistry. I wonder if now my entire tank will take a toll and lose all fish. If that happens, I will have a lot of equipment for sale

ariellemermaid · Oct 12, 2021

It sounds like you’re trying to do everything right with copper QT and whatnot. However keep in mind it is possible to introduce ich on corals, snails, and other inverts too and it might not show up right away while the fish are all healthy. So copper QT of fish by itself isn’t 100% even if done perfectly.

That said I’m not saying it is ich or is only ich, I’ll be interested to see what some decent white light pictures look like. Are the fish still eating? What about concerning behaviors- flashing, scratching, heavy breathing, erratic swimming, etc.?

AquAttila · Oct 12, 2021

Hi Guys, so I lost the large emporer this morning and my priced fish i.e goldenheart, bandit angel, red sea regal, among others have ich - but not yet in eyes. I removed in emergency and put these fish in my cycled 75 gal QT in basement. Do you recommend treating immedietly 2.5 ppm copper? or ramp up. I usually ramp up over a week but feel that I don't have the luxury.

I am also going out to a tractor supply store and getting a 100 gal rubber made tub to setup in basement. The question is, am I wating more money - has anyone had success with treating bad ich outbreak. I mean fish in my reef tank got ich a year or so and just want away - I have never had issues like this where ich is taking out fish daily!

AquAttila · Oct 12, 2021

i should add. reason for buying the large tub is that the goldenheart is huge and with other fish in the 75, I am worried of ammonia spike.

threebuoys · Oct 12, 2021

If you are using coppersafe or Copper Power I believe the recommendation is half now and half in 12 hours. A week is too long, fish may not last that long.

@Jay Hemdal will correct this timing if it needs to be sooner than 12 hours.

If the QT is cycled you should not experience a toxic ammonia spike.

FiddlersReef · Oct 12, 2021

CopperPower was “over the course of 12 hrs” so I just calculated the full dose and did 1/4 every 3 hours. No fish seemed stressed by that.

AquAttila · Oct 12, 2021

threebuoys said:
If you are using coppersafe or Copper Power I believe the recommendation is half now and half in 12 hours. A week is too long, fish may not last that long.

@Jay Hemdal will correct this timing if it needs to be sooner than 12 hours.

If the QT is cycled you should not experience a toxic ammonia spike.

cool, thanks. yea, I use copper power so will dose half today and half tomorrow.

AquAttila · Oct 12, 2021

sorry, I know I forgot something important. I have a gient crab that I do not want to lose here ... so after removing all fish from DT, I will leave anenomes as well as clean up crew, inverts. Leave tank for 2 months without fish. Because there is no host, I should be clean of ich?? this is what I read a while back, but was just curious if this assumption is correct.

Jay Hemdal · Oct 12, 2021

attilak said:
Hi Guys, so I lost the large emporer this morning and my priced fish i.e goldenheart, bandit angel, red sea regal, among others have ich - but not yet in eyes. I removed in emergency and put these fish in my cycled 75 gal QT in basement. Do you recommend treating immedietly 2.5 ppm copper? or ramp up. I usually ramp up over a week but feel that I don't have the luxury.

I am also going out to a tractor supply store and getting a 100 gal rubber made tub to setup in basement. The question is, am I wating more money - has anyone had success with treating bad ich outbreak. I mean fish in my reef tank got ich a year or so and just want away - I have never had issues like this where ich is taking out fish daily!

As I said, it REALLY helps to have a clear picture of the fish under white light, else we are just guessing. In your "blue" picture, I don't see any ich. I see possible HLLE, a torn caudal fin (from fighting?) and the eye damage. That could be from flukes, damage, or severe ich (but I don't see any white spots on the fins).

Going off your diagnosis of ich, then, yes, you need to get the fish into full copper, using a good test kit, within 12 hours. Copper can take up to three days to start to cure, and once you have lost fish due to ich, the remaining fish may not have three days to go.

Managing the ammonia, even in a large tub is going to be tricky - do you have any media from your DT that you can move over to use in the tub? Siporax, filter media, anything?

Jay

4FordFamily · Oct 13, 2021

Large angels are finnicky when new - the two biggest killers I've seen of them have been velvet and flukes and they present somewhat similarly in large angels, IME. They lose color and display spots. However with velvet they often breath more heavily and sometimes swim in to high flow areas (and hide from light). But from an appearance perspective.