Need Your Thoughts on Coral Coloration

[Dana Riddle]

Check out post 62 on this thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lets-see-your-t5-sps-tanks.135858/page-4
Todd

Thanks! I believe this was also posted on Jake's site, but it's been a while. I overdosed iron in an experiment with Porites lobata and saw exactly what that writer expressed - the corals' tissues darkened as they apparently concentrated iron (it wasn't an increase in photopigments based on chlorophyll analyses.)

 

[Dana Riddle]

Hi Dana,
Their coral farm website is http://sustainablereefs.com.au and their Supplement range is http://www.coralessentials.com.au

Thanks - very helpful!

 

[Peppe]

Thanks - very helpful!

Dana, I have never understood the question oligo .. I have a reef full sps but I can not pull out certain colors .. I use balling light fauna marin where elements are already contained trace, but I do not use the color element green, blue, purple . in your opinion to improve some colors what should I put in order to evaluate any possible effects? furthermore, if zinc is better not to add it, why is it present in many compounds to add oligo? here are some photos of my reef

 

[Dana Riddle]

Gorgeous aquarium! Looks like you're doing just about everything right. As for zinc, Wijgerde et al. looked at supplementation and found negative effects at the highest dose used in the experiment. They also reported no effect on coloration. With that said, Stylophora pistillata is not known to contain the DsRed protein. DsRed's fluorescence is known to increase in the presence of zinc. See here:

https://peerj.com/preprints/2858/

 

[Peppe]

Gorgeous aquarium! Looks like you're doing just about everything right. As for zinc, Wijgerde et al. looked at supplementation and found negative effects at the highest dose used in the experiment. They also reported no effect on coloration. With that said, Stylophora pistillata is not known to contain the DsRed protein. DsRed's fluorescence is known to increase in the presence of zinc. See here:

https://peerj.com/preprints/2858/

thank you so much. in your opinion which is the best way to add iron boron strontium potassium iodine etc? through single products or mixtures that contain more than one element inside them?

 

[Dana Riddle]

thank you so much. in your opinion which is the best way to add iron boron strontium potassium iodine etc? through single products or mixtures that contain more than one element inside them?

Since I am interested in observing effects of individual elements, I add ACS chemicals to a tank set up for the experiment, and not to a display or frag tank. I add only calcium and alkalinity supplements. I rely on water changes and food scraps to take care of the rest.

 

[chrismelb]

I’ve been really interested in Coral Essentials black label range that has just been released. These aren’t cheap at $300 for all three bottles but apparently the results are well worth it, with increased PE, colouration, and growth. The ingredients are said to be like nothing else on the market!

 

[Dana Riddle]

I’ve been really interested in Coral Essentials black label range that has just been released. These aren’t cheap at $300 for all three bottles but apparently the results are well worth it, with increased PE, colouration, and growth. The ingredients are said to be like nothing else on the market!

I've sent a request about availability of this product in the USA.

 

[Stigigemla]

I think Zink has more to do with how the coral skeleton grows then the colors of corals. (Zink deficiancy will form thinner and more porous branches)

 

[Dana Riddle]

This is gonna be interesting. There have been numerous claims with so many companies producing so many supplements . So many people claim with elements helping them with coloration of acros or even sometimes stopping tissue necrosis with dosage of strontium . However I believe I have never seem any studies where only one element was dosed over a period of 6-12 months , observations were made and then stopped the dosage and again observation was made .

Dana , are you planning for some experiments in effect of trace elements with coral coloration?

Regards,
Abhishek

I'm not sure I have enough years left to exam all the issues surrounding coral colors. There *might* be a shortcut to exam effects of metals. It would involve extraction of the protein, roughly based on Siro Kawaguti's procedure established almost 80 years ago. It won't be easy, but then things worth doing rarely are.

 

[reefwiser]

Dana I use this one.
http://professionalcoralsolutions.com/ an I can have them ship you some for testing I am sure.

 

[Peppe]

Since I am interested in observing effects of individual elements, I add ACS chemicals to a tank set up for the experiment, and not to a display or frag tank. I add only calcium and alkalinity supplements. I rely on water changes and food scraps to take care of the rest.

ok; but in a domestic reef do you recommend using individual elements to evaluate the effects of each on corals rather than these multiple compounds?

 

[C-Reefer]

I got two birdsnest coral frags about 2 inches long. They were an ugly brown, including polyps, but quickly started growing. Over this past month the polyps have turned into purple and green colors. Green on the shaded or lower portions and purple on the high light parts. I haven't changed anything, just got them from a guy. He was using a Kessil, and I use a Current Marine Orbit on full intensity. Its at a depth of about 10 inches from the light, about 4 inches underwater.

 

[mcarroll]

I think Zink has more to do with how the coral skeleton grows then the colors of corals. (Zink deficiancy will form thinner and more porous branches)

According to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00338-005-0045-x there's more to it.

"The uptake kinetics of zinc (Zn), an essential nutrient for both photosynthesis and calcification..."

also...

"...indicating a good adaptation of the corals to low levels of Zn in seawater. Zn accumulation in the skeleton was linear; its level was dependent on the length of the incubation as well as..."

Unfortunately the whole article is not available.

 

[mcarroll]

This is better:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-the-tropical-coral-Stylophora-pistillata.pdf

 

[Dana Riddle]

According to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00338-005-0045-x there's more to it.

"The uptake kinetics of zinc (Zn), an essential nutrient for both photosynthesis and calcification..."

also...

"...indicating a good adaptation of the corals to low levels of Zn in seawater. Zn accumulation in the skeleton was linear; its level was dependent on the length of the incubation as well as..."

Unfortunately the whole article is not available.

And this:
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/be-careful-with-zinc-levels-in-your-reef

 

[mcarroll]

Good one, AA!

That seems in-line with the 2005 observation on the other article that corals seem to be well-adapted to low levels of Zn in the water, yet accumulate Zn in their skeleton linearly according to concentration. Seems like a good place for them to "lock away" too much of a good thing.

Both studies looked at 10 µM concentration as the level where they saw some impact. How does that correlate to the µg/l units in the typical Triton test? (Randy had >4 µg/l Zn in the Triton results he published, for example.)

The 2005 study noticed "increased photosynthesis efficiency" along with a photosynthesis-related increase in absorption. Among other things, does this also imply added stress to the photosynthetic gear in the coral/dino's?

 

[Dana Riddle]

ok; but in a domestic reef do you recommend using individual elements evaluate the effects of each on corals rather than these multiple compounds?

The jury (my jury, anyways) is still out on the multi-supplements. There's a lot of evidence from hobbyists that at least some of these supplements will promote production of some colorful proteins. The truth is, is that I simply don't know, hence my current project investigating types of colors and effects of different parameters, including light, pH, and metals (the latter if I can get an acceptable protocol worked out.)

 

[maroun.c]

Very interesting discussion.
I struggled to understand the value of having iron in aquarium salts (3-4 salts at least) have higher iron content. Among those was AF salt that I used for some time. What caught my attention was after a couple of larger water changes (750 and 1250 litres water changes) I had twice a severe algae bloom. Water changes were to deal with a high tin and slightly high copper levels in my ICP. I discussed it with the company and didn't get any logical explanation to why their salt had iron at 21 when Normal levels were way lower and unfortunately didn't get any scientific answer. Iron levels were at 2.26 4 days after the water changes and went down to 0 around 10 days later on my following ICPs.
My theory is that iron strengthens alga. We all have phosphates and nitrates to some extent that would support algae growth. The only reason we don't all have algae is most probably iron deficiency (might be other deficient elements as well).
In my experience the added iron with algae in tank only made the tank act as a fuge.
Do we have any scientific explanation to iron consumption by corals? And to what extents in comparison to ak for example so we know how much to dose it. And if it gets consumed/ptecipitated that fast then dosing would not keep up.
As for lights affecting colors, we of course see corals responding differently to different lights. I have corals under razor, Orphek, radion, and Halides. But have seen some very very nice colors even under razor when water quality is fine. One Coral that intrigued me is my myagi tort which lost green and became mostly purple under Halides and Radions. Color change started after I replaced Orphek LEDS by Radions, it also gets light from MH. Same Coral frags in frag tanks that are connected to display tank, running under razor lights still show green.
My red Robin was always brown no matter how good/bad my water quality went. Where after the algae blooms and make I'm ng some changes and changing salt has started transitioning it color towards its usual colors.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Very interesting discussion.
I struggled to. UK nderstandable the value of having iron in n aquarium salts (3-4 salts at least) have higher iron content. Among those was AF salt that I used for some time. What caught my attention was after a couple of larger water changes (750 and 1250 litres water changes) I had twice a sever algae bloom. Water changes were to seal with a high tin and slightly high copper levels in my ICP. I discussed it with the company and didn't get any logical explanation to why their salt had iron at 21 when Normal levels were way lower and unfortunately didn't get any scientific answer. Iron levels were at 2.26 4 days after the water changes and went down to 0 around 10 days later on my following ICPs.
My theory is that iron strengthens alga. We all have phosphates and nitrates to some extent that would support algae growth. The only reason we don't all have algae is most probably iron deficiency (might be other deficient elements as well).
In my experience the added iron with algae in tank only made the tank act as a fuge.
Do we have any scientific explanation to iron consumption by corals? And to what extents in comparison to all for example si we know how much to dose it. And if it gets consumed/ptecipitated that fast then dosing would not keep up.
As for lights affecting colors, we of course see ciralsvresponding differentlybto different lights. I have corals under razor, Orphek, radion, and Halides. But have seen some very very nice colors even under razor when water quality is fine. One Coral that intrigued me is my myagi tort which lost green and became mostly purple under Halides and Radions. Color change started after I replaced Orphek LEDS by Radions, it also gets light from MH. Same Coral frag in frag tank that are connected to display tank, running under razor lights still show green.

This is a start... the really interesting part to me is that corals can apparently absorb some metals and concentrate them well above NSW levels in their skeletons.
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/10/corals
My red Robin was always brown no matter how good/bad my water quality went. Where after the algae blooms and make I'm ng some changes and changing salt has started transitioning it color towards its usual colors.