Needing ideas/suggestions... water change automation

Engloid

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I have my setup plumbed into my basment, where I have a mechanical room, so to speak. I am using two 55g drums, in series, as sumps...just to increase system volume. This room also houses chiller, skimmer, calcium reactor, etc. I have probably 350-400 gallons in the system, and really need to do larger water changes.

Auto topoff is done by means of JBJ ATO, coupled with a solenoid that controls water flow TO an RO setup, and then flows directly into the sump. In other words, I have no tank that is used to topoff water.

The thing I want to changs has to do with water changes. I'm currently using two 30g Brute garbage cans. One can is where I make new saltwater. The other is really just being used to measure. After I have one can full of mixed saltwater, I pump the second full of old water. This allows me to know how much water I have pumped OUT of the system...in other words, a full can. I then pump from the new saltwater can, the same amount, back into the system.

I want to make this easier, and make it such that I am able to change more than 30 gallons at a time. To do this, I need to be able to make new saltwater in BOTH cans. I then need to be able to pump 60 gallons out of the tank WITHOUT using the cans...because they will be full of new water.

Of course, I can mark the drum so that I know how much to pump out....but I would like to come up with a better idea.

In the end, I want a system that I can just flip switches, or open valves and make water changes as easy as possible. I would love to see some other peoples' setups for water changes, and hear any ideas you have to help me with mine.
 
Get a large container (or make one) and plumb it in to the system so that water circulates through it on a regular basis. Its water supply needs to be on the pumps pressure side, and it needs to drain back to the sump under gravity. It also needs a valve so you can drain it to waste (down the drain). When you are ready to do a water change, shut off the valve from the pump and open the tank drain. Afterwards, close the drain and turn on the RODI (I added the DI part because I know you really have one...I hope). When you get the salt right and the temp up to par with the tank, then you can open the pump valve to add the new water to the system.

The moral of the story is you don't need to drain the display tank to do a water change. (The upper inhabitants will hate you for it.)
 
Get a large container (or make one) and plumb it in to the system so that water circulates through it on a regular basis. Its water supply needs to be on the pumps pressure side, and it needs to drain back to the sump under gravity. It also needs a valve so you can drain it to waste (down the drain). When you are ready to do a water change, shut off the valve from the pump and open the tank drain. Afterwards, close the drain and turn on the RODI (I added the DI part because I know you really have one...I hope). When you get the salt right and the temp up to par with the tank, then you can open the pump valve to add the new water to the system.

The moral of the story is you don't need to drain the display tank to do a water change. (The upper inhabitants will hate you for it.)

I am not draining out of the display. I'm draining out of the sump in the basement for waterchanges. I wasn't really clear on that in my post. Basically, my waterchanges are being done like you said, but I would like to find an easier way to do it. The easiest I can think of is to pump 30 gal out into one can, measure the fluid level drop, double it to calculate a 60gal drain...mark drums at that level and go with it for future changes.

Also, I don't use DI. I get down to 3ppm tds without it, using a 4 stage setup...and that's with a lot of galvanized piping in my house. I may one day use DI, but really don't feel the need to at 3ppm tds. I run carbon, biopellets, and GFO...and will begin ZeoMag next time I open up the calcium reactor.
 
It sounds like you are describing a setup I have already, with a large tank, circulating all the time...a sump, which I have 110 gallins in the basement. If I close the pump valve and drain them, ithen depend on RO filter to fill, then I'm waiting several hours to make that many gallons. Then I am adding salt, need a circ pump to mix, waiting longer on heat and mix to get right. Maybe I wasn't very clear on my current method, or don't understand yours...but it seems more difficult and lengthy than what I do now.
 
The purpose of the independent water tank is so your system does not have to be shut down. When you turn the valves, it takes it out of the system. Then you can walk away from it and let it do it's thing.

By using your sump, you are a slave to it until the process is finished.

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Here's a different way. I think you'll like this better:
You'll need to drill the side of the sump right above the water level in the pump chamber (above the ATO level). Add a bulkhead fitting and run a hose to your basement drain. Then when you add new water, the old water that is displaced automatically drains out.

The transfer pump will need to be significantly smaller than the circulation pump. The new water should be added close to the intake of the circulation pump. The transfer pump should also be on a float switch so you don't have to stand over it.
 
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Im working on a program for Arduino controllers that would make the Arduino the controller for auto-top-off as well as auto-water changes... made a list of standard features I want to include and the sensors I want to interface. I think something like this (a cheap microcontroller) would be the best method for automating the process. If I have say, a 300g display, I would want something like a 300g sump, or a chamber plumbed in series & in parallel with valves that holds at least 200g (well call it a circulation tank). Having a large empty res of just saltwater helps keep the tank stable and serves as the drain/fill tank for water changes. Next to that I would have another tank of matching volume (so, 200g lets say) and then the RO top off tank which could vary in size but I would suggest at least 40 gallons (we will call these the mixing tank and RO tank). Now, minimizing the number of tanks is possible but makes things less stable and requires more programming. You could use two tanks for three of the functions, but then you have complications and delays... like if you have one tank for mixing&circulation and another for RO, then you would have to suspend top-off functions until the RO tank is done supplying the mixing/circulation tank and refills itself... a long time for a larger water change like 200g. The idea is that then each chamber has its fill valves and drain valves controlled, or you could use pumps with each to pump into or out of each chamber to and from each other. In each chamber, you could use laser distance finders to sense the water levels, or mechanical float switches to tell the arduino when each chamber is full, empty, or somewhere in between. The arduino would then use relays to either turn on pumps or open and shut valves to drain and fill each tank. The entire process could be easily automated then into something like this with the push of one button:

When button "change" button is pressed (or a pre-programmed timer says its time), the pump or valves that circulate water in series with the sump or in a closed loop with the sump are closed and if plumbed in series, the valves that bypass this circulation chamber are opened. In this case, the auto-top-off can stay on.

Next, if the top float in the circulation tank indicates the chamber is full, then the drain opens (or drain pump is turned on) to empty this chamber until the bottom float in the circulation tank indicates that it is empty.

Next, the drain valve is shut or the drain pump is shut off.

Next, if the mixing tank's top float indicates that it is full (there is some additional programming here that is up to the user's pref's), and a salinity meter indicates that it is saltwater (or it could trigger an alarm for a manual check that the water is mixed, or to mix it in the first place which could be a seperate program all together or automated with pre-measured cups of salt and a mixing pump), it opens its drain valve (or turns on a drain pump) to pump/drain freshly mixed saltwater into the circulation tank.

Next, when the bottom float indicates the mixing tank is empty, the drain valve closes on the mixing tank (this could also just be controlled by generous or manually entered time-delay).

Next, recheck that the drain valve/drain pump on the circulation tank is closed, then open up the valves that allow the circulation tank to run in series with the sump and shut close the ones that put it in parallel... or if plumbed into a closed loop with the sump (like another display tank but empty) turn on the loop pump.

Next, with the drain on the mixing tank shut (or drain to circulation tank off), the mixing tank refills (from RO tank means the auto-top-off must be suspended until the mixing tank is full again, or have them both fill in parallel) until its top valve indicates that it is full with RO water again. During this period though, something will need to be figured out between filling the RO tank (if they are in series or parallel) and the mixing tank depending on the time needed to fill each (capacity of RO, daily RO demands, tank capacities will determine this).

Next, when the mixing tank's top switch indicates that it is full, the arduino can set off an alarm, send an email over ethernet or WiFi (with respective sheilds), etc... to tell the user that another batch of fresh RO water is ready to be mixed into saltwater. Until the user responds and tells the controller that the salt has been mixed in, operations are put on hold of course to prevent RO from being mixed into the sump.

The auto-top-off tank would have float switches inside it in the top and bottom to tell when its empty and full. There would also be two switches inside the sump or a laser rangefinder/optical switches, etc... to prevent mechanical failures and tell the arduino what the level is inside the sump.

When the lower float switch in the sump (or laser rangefinder) indicates that the sump needs water, and RO functions have not been suspended due to water change functions, the arduino would open up a solenoid or turn on a small pump to feed RO water from the RO tank to the sump.

Next, when the upper float switch in the sump shows that the sump is at its maximum level, the arduino shuts off the top-off mechanism (pump or valve).

If at any time the top off stays on for more than say... 30 seconds (exact value TBD by user based on pump flow rate and maximum possible top-off time), it will suspend top-off functions and sound an alarm telling that there is a malfunction with the top-off system (a float switch in the RO tank or the top switch in the sump has failed).

When the top-off is turned on, regardless of what the upper valve in the sump indicates, it must stay on for at least (TBD) 10 seconds to prevent a situation where if the floats in the sump are too close together, or the top one sticks, it wont trigger on and off constantly...

Similar to the 10 second minimum, so that waves/surges in the sump dont trigger a false fill, a minimum of 30 seconds with the bottom float switch in the sump in the "needs a fill" position is needed to trigger a top-off.

The floats inside the RO tank tell the top-off if it is full or empty and allows the arduino to trigger a solenoid to fill the tank (in conjunction with the normal float valve for redundancy). This allows the RO to fill a larger volume at once than the float alone would (RO's take out more if allowed to run larger volumes at a time).

Anyways, you get the idea... you can use an arduino or other microcontroller with simple float switch add-ons and basic logic to automate the processes of ATO's and water changes by using some simple float switch interfacing and valve/pump relay controls.
 
That will make Rube Goldberg proud (jk). As long as the controller will do it all, that's all that matters. To make it sellable, it will have to be condensed to the fewest number of tanks possible. Most people don't have room for multiple tanks and/or a wife that will allow them. lol

The laser water level sensor won't work (with todays lasers (cost effective lasers, that is)). To make the idea work, you need to bounce the laser off of a floating ball contained in a vertical tube.
 
This is the tank I was describing for using for water changes.

CHOMPERS SW Water Change Tank.JPG

During normal operation of the display tank, water normally flows through this tank from the sump (from the pump in the sump), and then back to the sump.

When a water change is desired, the supply valve to this tank is then closed and the ATO is turned off. (The ATO needs to be made with float switches and a solenoid valve rather than a float switch). Valve C can then be opened to drain the tank to waste.

When the tank is drained and the valve is closed, the ATO can be turned back on to fill the tank. NOTE: this ATO does not keep the display tank topped off.

When the tank is filled, the circulation pump can be turned on and the salt mix added. When the salinity is properly adjusted and the temperature is acceptable, the valves can be returned to normal operation so that the new water is circulated through the system.
 
A little clarification on the plumbing...
Valves A & B are plumbed back to the sump. Valve C is to waste (a drain). Not shown is the water supply to the tank (but described from the sump). The water supply is just over the top edge or the tank can be drilled for a permanently mounted bulkhead fitting.

This can all be run by a controller (except for the salt), and there are definitely areas that allow for tweeking. This system condenses everything into one tank. Since it is normally full between water changes, it can double as a holding tank for an injured or sick fish.
 
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Have you considered doing continuous water changes? You could use the two cans you currently have, RO water being made/ mixed in one while the other is being used for WC's.
Or, another option would be to use the one can as solely an RO storage, the other dedicated to saltwater. When you get down to the last couple of gallons, pump the stored water over to the salt can and make some more. Another plus, you'd have a can of RO made up and at the ready in case of an emergency.
The nice thing about continuous WC's, you don't need to heat the water.
 
If you pre-measure the salt or use a salinity probe, you could automate the salt mixing as well...

If you can run a bypass on the sump, you dont need to shut off the ATO either.
 
I have been thinking about this stuff for my new system.

What I am thinking is the sump level is kept to a certain level via ATO. Why not 1/2" or so above that level have hole drilled in the side with bulkhead that would drain out to waste drain. So when I pump in said amount of fresh saltwater that much excess would just drain out.

Just trying to come up with easy setup for water changes for my wife to do when I deploy.
 
I have been thinking about this stuff for my new system.

What I am thinking is the sump level is kept to a certain level via ATO. Why not 1/2" or so above that level have hole drilled in the side with bulkhead that would drain out to waste drain. So when I pump in said amount of fresh saltwater that much excess would just drain out.

Just trying to come up with easy setup for water changes for my wife to do when I deploy.
It is generally a good idea to have that bulkhead you are talking about...as an emergency drain, in case there is some malfunction. However, the problems with doing what you are talking about is it's about like dumping clean water in a dirty tank. You are diluting what's in there and then draining out part of the mixture...rather than draining out 100% dirty water and then filling back with 100% clean water.

I use two 55g drums as sumps. They are plastic and you can see the water line through them. I have a ball valve at the bottom. I mark the drums so I know how far to drain the level down to, in order to do a 1 or 2 "Brute" 29g can waterchange. In other words, I have a Brute can or two filled with new water. I drain my sumps down to whichever mark I want, then pump from the garbage cans into the sumps. It works well, but isn't automated, for sure.

Depending on the size of your tank, and her level of understanding (willingness to understand) the procedure, buckets or something simple may be best.
 
I think you are splitting hairs here. Lets use some SWAG, lil math and common sense. Doing a water change the way I was thinking.

If I have a 200 gal system and do a lets say 20 gal water change. That's 10%. I put in 20 and take out 20. Now the water going in wont be all at once so we can take that into account. If I did just dump the new water in all at once I would then be taking 10% of new water out 2 gal. But since it won't all go in at once I am gonna cut that in half, 1 gallon of new water would end up in the waste water. Even if we did a 40 gal water change that 2 gal going into waste.

No measuring, no juggling two buckets, and no switching valves from this sump to that sump. Not attacking you and there is nothing wrong with your technique but it is not the simplest technique for a wife that doesn't care bout reefing to do while I am gone for months at a time.
 
+1 on the continuous water change.
I also travel alot and needed a way to make it easy for my wife to make sure my waterchanges happened.
I set up a continuous waterchange system utilizing two 50ml/min dosing pumps. I change roughly 1 gallon per day on my 100 gallon system.
I started this up 2 years ago i have never looked back.
I have 3 40 gallon storage barrels. (1) 40 housing 40 gallons RO, (2) is used as a mixing Barrel, (3) houses 40 gallons of fresh Saltwater.
Pretty easy set up, when i start to run low on saltwater all my wife has to do is turn a couple ball valves sending ro into the mixing chamber, pour in salt, start closed loop to mix, then open a couple more ball valves to fill up the saltwater storage. DONE

and on the other bright side i always have at least 40 gallons of ro on hand and could have up to 80 gallons of saltwater at any given time :)
 

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