Neptune ATK First Impressions

[Sleepydoc]

I ordered a Neptune ATK and hooked it up a few days ago and thought I'd post my first impressions.

As background, I have no controller but am planning on getting one within the next several months and have basically decided on an Apex. I currently have a Tunze Osmolator that has been working perfect (except for one time when I failed to keep the optical sensor clean ;Facepalm)

Note - I typically advise against getting new products immediately after they come on the market in case there are unforeseen bugs. In my system, my sump is easily has the capacity to handle the entire 10 gallon capacity of my ATO reservoir, and the drop in system salinity would not be disastrous, even if the ATK were to dump the entire contents into my system. Since I was planning on getting a FMM when I purchased an Apex I decided to go ahead and take the plunge.​

Setup/Configuration
Setup was very easy and is about as plug-and-play as you can get - mount the bracket in your sump, plug the two sensor cables into the FMM box. Connect the tubing to the pump and the float valve. Plug the pump into the FMM box, and plug in the power supply. I haven't mounted the box yet, but the entire process took less than 10 minutes and a pretty blue light was glowing, telling me my system was ready to go. The magnetic holder held well and has a rubberized backing to prevent slipping. The magnet doesn't feel as the Tunze's, but it's working fine on my 40b sump.

The system is designed to be used out of the box in stand alone mode, but can also be connected to an Apex controller. The controller connection gives more options for alerts, configuration and disables the IQ Fill functionality.

'IQ fill' - from the description and comments from @Terence, The FMM takes a running average of the last 5 top off run times. If the system runs for more than twice this average it says something's wrong and triggers an alarm.

FMM inputs - #'s 1 & 2 are used by the optical sensors. 3 & 4 can be used for a leak detection probe and a ATO reservoir level sensor respectively. If these are connected then the unit will shut off the pump when a leak is detected or the water level drops below the sensor.

Alarms - there are 4 ways to trigger an alarm (that I know of,) all of which shut off the pump and make the unit beep. (note that the number of beeps corresponds to the port to which the corresponding sensor is connected.

1. If the unit has been running too long and IQ Fill is activated the unit emits a series of single beeps
2. If the water level rises above the upper sensor on the bracket for more than 10 minutes it will emit a series of 2 beeps.
3. If the leak detector senses water it emits a series of 3 beeps
4. If the reservoir level falls below the sensor it emits a series of 4 beeps.

Performance/use
In the few days I've used it, it seems to do a good job of maintaining my sump level. Just eyeballing the volume change in the return chamber it appears that the Neptune ATK has a slightly larger volume swing than the Tunze osmolator did, but it's not a huge difference and definitely not enough to matter. I'd estimate the water level change to be around 5mm for the ATK vs 3 mm for the Tunze, or approx 600ml vs 400ml. Just to check, I pulled up on the float valve as it was filling and it does indeed stop the flow of water as one would expect.

The PMUP pump is definitely quieter than the Tunze pump. It also is easier to keep upright and will prime itself without me reaching into the sump to shake the bubbles out like I had to do with the Tunze pump. Flow wise it's about the same. I think the flow of the PMUP is likely better but it gets restricted by the float valve. I also haven't trimmed the tubing yet.

Yesterday I did a 15 gallon water change for which I close the valve on the return pump & turn it off, turn off the skimmer and let the contents of the C2C overflow siphon down to the sump, causing the sump level to rise a couple of inches. After 10 minutes, the FMM began to beep, as expected. Once the water change was complete, I waited to see if the beeping would stop. Even after waiting a few hours and letting the sump level drop it still didn't stop beeping. A quick check on the web site confirmed that once an alarm is triggered you have to unplug the device to reset it.

Some people have asked about using other pumps. If you have an Apex you could of course use one of the switched ports. If you're using as a standalone system and want something besides the PMUP pump, you either need to find another 24V pump (kind of an unusual voltage for a pump,) use a step-down transformer, or rig a relay to control a 120V pump.

Impressions:
Compared to the Tunze osmolator there are some definite advantages & disadvantages.

The ability to easily add a leak detection sensor and ATO reservoir sensor is very nice, and would be nice to have on the Tunze, especially since priming the Tunze pump is a bit annoying. With a bit of tinkering, I think you could do the same and add a float valve to the Tunze, but it would definitely involve more work.

I like the PMUP pump better than the Tunze pump. Tunze does have an optional controller that lets you use any 120V pump you want, but it's pretty pricey, considering it's little more than a 12V relay.

In general, optical sensors are more reliable than float sensors, although either can fail, especially if they aren't kept clean. The backup sensor for the Tunze is a float sensor, but it's positioned above the waterline and almost always kept dry, so the likelihood of it failing when needed is extremely low.

The 2nd optical sensor in the ATK is positioned too close to the first IMO (or at least for my use). Given that my water change routine regularly raises the water level above the 2nd sensor and triggers an alarm it will get rather annoying for me. I may try to mount it separately higher in the sump to avoid the issue.

Forcing you to disconnect the power to reset the alarms in the stand alone configuration is rather annoying, too. Particularly for the high sump level, low reservoir alarms, there's no reason the system can't automatically reset itself once the conditions are cleared.

Another potential problem spot for me is the IQ Fill functionality. It's meant as a safety backup, but it's a bit too conservative, IMO. Most of the time when my ATO runs it's on for about 10-15 seconds. When the Beananimal overflow starts up, the level in the return section of the sump transiently drops while the system equilibrates. I haven't checked it yet, but I can easily see this causing the ATK to timeout and alarm. The Tunze has a straight timer that you can manually adjust; a system I like better for a standalone setup.

Overall, it's kind of a wash in terms of functionality (as a stand alone unit) between the ATK and the Tunze. There are a few advantages, but some disadvantages too. I'll keep using the ATK for now, but for me, the annoyances I list above will likely outweigh the advantages and I'll probably switch back tot he Tunze until I get an Apex.

Edit - here are a couple useful links:
Neptune's ATK announcement from Terrence
The ATK Getting Started/Help/FAQ page

 

[deaclauderdale]

Good write up. I just order an ATK that should be here in a few days. I'm currently running a float switch with an aqua lifter pump so it will most definitely be an upgrade for me. I'm hoping that with my Apex the alarms can be reset remotely, but I like the idea of an audible alert that forces me to check my system.

 

[Bob Escher]

I was using a Tunze nano ATO until something went out on it. I bought a new float and a BOB ( was planning on buying the BOB anyway) and am using that the Tunze was gone. I did like the Tunze but didn't like the syphon aspects or it filling the sump in case of gravity. I like the ATK for the additional safety features and will buy it shortly

 

[Sleepydoc]

Ok, so after using this for a few more days, doing some more reading and playing around I have some updates:

First some details on the programming & operation that I have collated from the various Neptune web pages & other sources:

• There is no manual, online or otherwise - just the videos, FAQs and support forums. It's not difficult to use or setup, but having everything in one PDF would be nice.
• It will only fill/turn on once an hour.
• The water level must be below the sensor for 10 seconds for it to trigger and the pump will continue to run for 4 seconds after the sensor is covered with water
• The maximum run time is 5 minutes
• As stated above, IQ Fill is the average of the last 5 fills. Until it has run 5 times IQ fill is inactive. After it's active it will run for a maximum of 3x the average.
• Power cycling resets the IQ Fill memory meaning it needs to fill another 5 times to re-learn.

From my own experimentation, the sensors have approximately a ⅛" (3.2mm) shift in water level or hysteresis between the level needed to switch them on and the level at which they turn off. The return chamber of my sump is 17.5 x 10.5", meaning it will switch on after a drop of about 12 ounces/375 ml of water. When I checked the sensor on my Tunze osmolator, it was actually even more sensitive - turning on & off over just 1/16"! I suppose you could say the Tunze is twice as accurate, but from a practical perspective it doesn't really matter. For my 120 gallon tank, a swing of 12 ounces will cause a salinity variation of just 0.07%.- I think they are both more than accurate enough!

There is about 13/32" (10.3 mm) difference in the level of the primary sensor and the secondary/over fill sensor. For my sump, that translates to 41 ounces/1220 ml, or about 3.5 times the average top off volume. This is very close to the IQ Fill limit of 3x - I suspect that may have been intentional.

My normal routine is to hit the feed (30 min pause) button on my return pump and skimmer when I feed my fish. Even the water draining down from my overflow will raise the sump level by an inch, so I have to either unplug the ATK every time I feed or reset it once the system starts up again. If my protein skimmer shuts off because the container is full, the water level in the sump rises about ⅜" - just enough to trigger the backup sensor.

Another issue I've run into is that the occasional snail or other factor that may temporarily lower the flow through the return pipes can cause small variations in the level of the return chamber. Normally these aren't a big deal, but with the ATK it has been enough to trigger the over fill alarm.

So after using it for a while I ended up taking it out of my tank and putting the Tunze osmolator back in. The Neptune ATK did a perfectly fine job of maintaining the water level, but it was so prone to alarming that it made it more of a hassle than a helper for my system. If the alarms would automatically reset it would help greatly, but since you have to manually unplug the device (and since the device is completely disabled until you do so,) it greatly reduces the usefulness of the alarms. Having to turn it off every day for feeding (and reset the IQ fill memory in the process) means that the IQ Fill is functionally useless a good portion of the time. Even if I were to move the backup sensor to a higher level, the time it takes my beananimal system to reach steady state during startup is long enough that it would cause an alarm.

As I said above, I'm planning on getting an Apex in the not-to-distant future, so the ATK wasn't a complete waste of money, but if you're looking at a stand-alone ATO system, the Tunze would be a better choice IMO. The ability to connect the extra sensors to the FMM is nice, but the hassles of dealing with the alarm system on a daily basis greatly outweigh any potential benefits.

 

[Salty1962]

Good read. Thx for taking the time to write it up!

 

[Bob Escher]

Good read but I wonder if it will be better on a Apex as I plan on getting one

 

[Sleepydoc]

My understanding is that all of the alarms and alarm related behavior will be handled through the Apex, obviating the alarm issues I described with the stand alone setup. One complaint I've read from Apex users is that the audible alarm is inactivated when connected to the Apex. Many would like to be able to use the audible alarm as well. Hopefully they'll add that with a firmware update.

To be honest, if they would change the stand alone programming, they could significantly reduce or even eliminate the issues I described above. (i.e. if the system alarms because the water level rises above the 2nd backup sensor and the water level drops again, simply have the system revert to the regular operating state. Ditto with the low reservoir sensor if you were to use that)

 

[eschulist]

Its too bad it didn't work well in Standalone mode for you. I was beta testing the ATK with many users for almost 2 months and these settings worked for most people.

I think your main gripe is your feed mode is 30 minutes and when turning on your pump the level in your return chamber drops for a longer period before things equalize. And both of these cause false low and high readings.

Having it connected to an Apex gets rid of every annoyance you have as you can alter these values and add in feed/power delays.

This is the default ATK code when using an Apex (It has the same delays as Standalone)
60 Minutes between top offs, 10 second delay before top off start, 4 second top off minimum, error if on longer than 5 minutes.

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATK_Lo OPEN Then ON
If ATK_Hi CLOSED Then OFF
When On > 005:00 Then OFF
Defer 000:10 Then ON
Defer 000:04 Then OFF
Min Time 060:00 Then OFF

I've altered mine to be this since my tank is really small and I too didn't want false readings during feed modes or pump restarts
60 Minutes between top offs, 3 minute delay before top off start, 4 second top off minimum, error if on longer than 30 seconds, no top offs during or after 5 minutes of feed mode / power failure to let the siphons restart and stabilize.

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATK_Lo OPEN Then ON
If ATK_Hi CLOSED Then OFF
If ATK_Le CLOSED Then OFF
If ATK_Em OPEN Then OFF
If FeedA 005 Then OFF
If Power Apex Off 005 Then OFF
When On > 000:30 Then OFF
Defer 003:00 Then ON
Defer 000:04 Then OFF
Min Time 060:00 Then OFF

 

[Sleepydoc]

Yeah, I was disappointed to. I was really excited about it. At least I have the FMM module for when I finally get an Apex.

I think the fundamental design/programming flaw in the system is how any alarm completely deactivates the system until you unplug it and plug it back in. For a critical event like the leak detector I could understand that, but for the ATO reservoir low water sensor, or the secondary sensor it doesn't make sense. Especially given how close the secondary level sensor is to the primary one.

I know many people who do as I do and turn off their return pumps and/or skimmers for feeding, maintenance or other activities, so I doubt I'm the only one that would have these issues. I'm hopeful that Neptune updates the firmware. Some minor changes could eliminate many of the issues.

Thanks for the code examples too. Does the Apex automatically insert that when you set up the ATK?

 

[eschulist]

Thanks for the code examples too. Does the Apex automatically insert that when you set up the ATK?

The one at the top is created automatically if you use their new "Task" ATK setup feature. It will walk you through all the setup steps and do all the programming for you. Once it was created I opened the advanced options as added/altered the code to my needs.

 

[Mcdy]

Has any user of the ATK noticed that the there is a continuous drip from the float/water supply hose? I may have just answered my own question--probably need to install the anti-siphoning splice to prevent this from happening. (I ordered a Synergy Reef ATO Reservoir that I haven't gotten yet SO, being impatient, I am using a 5 gallon bucket and have not installed the siphoning splice) Love answering my own questions!!

 

[Reefer_Rob]

Has any user of the ATK noticed that the there is a continuous drip from the float/water supply hose? I may have just answered my own question--probably need to install the anti-siphoning splice to prevent this from happening. (I ordered a Synergy Reef ATO Reservoir that I haven't gotten yet SO, being impatient, I am using a 5 gallon bucket and have not installed the siphoning splice) Love answering my own questions!!

Theres no drip from mine but my ATO tank water level is lower than my sump level so I didnt install the siphon break.

Just for kicks, drop the water in the 5 gal bucket so the water sits lower and see if you still get the drip.

 

[Mcdy]

Thanks for taking the time to reply,...I was going to do that but there is a lot if moving around to make that happen. Currently I only have enough slack in the pmup wire to get about half way down the 5 gallon bucket. Otherwise I'll have to run it from the basement up. Long story short--wife dragged me into this not knowing what she was getting into and now I am into it and all the gadgets--I would have improved on the placement of the tank, cabinet and so on. Oh well, we will get it right once the Synergy Reef ATO Resevoir shows up.

 

[DarthSimon]

Great write up. I’ve been using my atk for 3 years. Never had any mechanical issues that weren’t my fault. Sensors getting dirty ect....

 

[Mcdy]

Enjoyed the read,...We recently got into building a Reef Tank and the Apex was the first purchase after we got the tank, sump, and water in the tank. We have had it a little over 2 months now and we haven't had an issue at all. The biggest problem was setting up the conductivity probe (ph). Come to find out, after talking with Neptune, auto-calibrate is not the way to go. After a couple of hours trying to calibrate on my own and reading forums,...I emailed Neptune, bought some more solution and within an hour they responded with manual calibration steps.

Dealing with Neptune has been nothing but satisfactory. I have shot them random emails on stuff and they have responded back within 2-4 hours. They are serious about supporting their product and really have turned me on to the idea of "internet tech support". Them, Kessil, and Synergy Reef have been impressive with their response times and attention to detail.

To add to the list of exceptional support-- Reef2Reef, Neptune Forum, BRS and the countless Reefers that post support videos have been spot on with every piece of advice they have given. The information has been overwhelming but listening to a few key youtubers and my local LFS (Live Art Aquatics in Independence, MO)--It has been extremely easy and to this point "growing reef tank"