Neptune trident

[Reefcowboy]

Considering the problems you had upgrading to the 2016, Im surprised you're so up to rely on a brand new system. After my experience with the 2016, Im not sure I would start using this (as a means to dose or stop dosing of ca/alk/mg) until it had been out and tested for at least a year. I had a story similar to yours, 2 crashes based on a faulty chip in my first 2016 and a problem with glitches after a firmware upgrade. This cost thousands of dollars, hours of time and months from which to recover. I sold all my modules, use my Radion reef link to program lights, my gyre is programmed by the gyre controller (rather than the apex module). Dosing is through an independent dose. If Apex and its programming fails, it affects my tank very little. I love the ability to monitor things (this makes the trident an expensive toy) and I like the ability to turn outlets off/on for maintenance. But it amazes me how so many people rely on this controller to do extremely complex things with their tanks.

I agree with some of what you wrote. The thing for me is Neptune handled my issues the best way possible and gained my trust. In one instance, I got four emails on a Sunday from a tech trying to help. That said a lot about the company. The issue with the new apex was identified and solved quickly so I sold it and bought it months later, when they reached out to tell me it was good to go. Neptune was kind enough to test my unit before they sold it to me. The new system has been running without any hickups since early November 16. I could have waited 3 years and still bought a lemon system, who knows. Some companies sell heaters for decades but you still will never know how it will act in your tank until you plug it in. Considering the amount of Apex's out there and the complexity of the product compared to a simple heater, I think they do pretty good.

I understand some people dont like automation, after all things can go wrong. Im quite the opposite and have the controller running most of my tank. Yes more room for murphys law to act upon, but this little orange box saved my floors twice when my overflow clogged. It saved me three floors of saltwater damage at my house so Im ok with it running my return pump for now.

IMO the ease to monitor it all, allowing me to enjoy the tank's equipment in one screen on my phone makes up for the risk any day. Thats just me though

 

[andrew james]

I decided to go ahead and pull the trigger on a KH Guardian Monitor with its AIM add on (included with purchase.) With a free PH monitor port on your Apex you can monitor and control DHK right in your APEX.

Totally my opinion here but I think monitoring Cal and MG is a novelty. Once you have Ionic balance there is no reason to bother checking either more than maybe once every few months. They can both be calculated using your DKH number. That and the fact that the KH guardian Monitor is available right now for the same price and doesn't require the 2016 apex makes it the better choice for me.

Im saying all this as a total Neptune fanboy I just don't see the need to wait probably a year or more for something I can have right now.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with some of what you wrote. The thing for me is Neptune handled my issues the best way possible and gained my trust. In one instance, I got four emails on a Sunday from a tech trying to help. That said a lot about the company. The issue with the new apex was identified and solved quickly so I sold it and bought it months later, when they reached out to tell me it was good to go. /QUOTE]

I agree completely - the problem is they shouldn't have put a defective product on the market in the first place. AND saying this I know it was partly a chip manufacturer that was the problem - still. If this were a medical device they would be out of business now. That is not meant to be offensive to Neptune - whose support team is great. I just mean fool me once.......

 

[MnFish1]

Oh - and I don't know why no one else has asked 'why doesn't Neptune just sell an alkalinity monitor' for less.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I'd guess the frequency of testing is aimed at truly "monitoring" the parameters in question. Sure you can test less frequently, but if that would only achieve a similar result to your current testing regimen, then you lose a major benefit to having a system that can monitor your params and inform you of true trends. My .02.

 

[MnFish1]

I'd guess the frequency of testing is aimed at truly "monitoring" the parameters in question. Sure you can test less frequently, but if that would only achieve a similar result to your current testing regimen, then you lose a major benefit to having a system that can monitor your params and inform you of true trends. My .02.

Agree - So - if a human being is worried about getting leukemia, should they get a blood test every day, every week, every year? What if the frequency Neptune has recommended is not enough - what if an anemone dies at 2 and your next test is at 7. Not meaning to be sarcastic - but there is a real issue here. You could also monitor these things every minute, yet no one would say that makes sense. So - does it really make sense to monitor magnesium 3x/day? As another poster said - does it make sense to monitor Ca 3x/day? Does it even make sense to monitor alkalinity 3x.day? Unless you want to Sell a monitoring system?

 

[MnFish1]

I'd guess the frequency of testing is aimed at truly "monitoring" the parameters in question. Sure you can test less frequently, but if that would only achieve a similar result to your current testing regimen, then you lose a major benefit to having a system that can monitor your params and inform you of true trends. My .02.

The monitoring is designed to make money for the people that make the testing. No more, no less. Thats not a slam against Neptune. Though I wish they would post the rationale for testing the number of times they are doing - besides profits. Profits are a good thing BTW nothing against that. Science-wise - when people currently recommend testing Alk weekly - I think Neptune should defend why 3/d makes sense

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Agree - So - if a human being is worried about getting leukemia, should they get a blood test every day, every week, every year? What if the frequency Neptune has recommended is not enough - what if an anemone dies at 2 and your next test is at 7. Not meaning to be sarcastic - but there is a real issue here. You could also monitor these things every minute, yet no one would say that makes sense. So - does it really make sense to monitor magnesium 3x/day? As another poster said - does it make sense to monitor Ca 3x/day? Does it even make sense to monitor alkalinity 3x.day? Unless you want to Sell a monitoring system?

My point was to answer the question of why the testing is much more frequent than we're accustomed to. I think the answer still holds true -- it's aimed at getting closer to constant monitoring of the parameters (It's not "constant" but it is a heck of a lot closer than once a week or even once a day.). If you choose to test less, that's fine...just know that there's a trade-off. It's up to each user to decide where the trade-off is worth it.

The monitoring is designed to make money for the people that make the testing. No more, no less. Thats not a slam against Neptune. Though I wish they would post the rationale for testing the number of times they are doing - besides profits. Profits are a good thing BTW nothing against that. Science-wise - when people currently recommend testing Alk weekly - I think Neptune should defend why 3/d makes sense

First, I think the statement: "The monitoring is designed to make money for the people that make the testing. No more, no less." is a gross oversimplification. I think it's fair (and obvious) to say that Neptune intends to make money on the product. That is why they're in business. However, to say that's the only reason for the product writes off any intention to better the hobby, increase value for the user, serve the customer, etc. I do hope Neptune gives an explanation for why the frequent testing, and perhaps they will. Perhaps it's based on the shelf life of the reagent, perhaps it's based on the swings they perceived in testing, perhaps it's based on what they thought users would want. In any case, they've built in the ability to change the frequency of testing, so it will ultimately be up to each user to decide. That's what's great about options!

 

[Zaffor]

Its amazing the number of frivolous comments on these pages! This thing is not even out yet!! Give them a chance to release more information before spewing forth the hate.

 

[Jonty]

Given this is a reagent titration with I assume a color change measured can we hope to see other tests coming out in the future. I would love to see Phosphate and Nitrate along side this unit.

 

[Reefcowboy]

Given this is a reagent titration with I assume a color change measured can we hope to see other tests coming out in the future. I would love to see Phosphate and Nitrate along side this unit.

NO3 and Po4 monitoring would be awesome. But again they come out with that and we would read pages and pages of people still upset with the classic incompatibility or how monitoring these two is silly and unimportant. Then you are called a fanboy and thats the end of a thread with potential good info about an interesting product to many others, lol.

 

[Reefcowboy]

The monitoring is designed to make money for the people that make the testing. No more, no less. Thats not a slam against Neptune. Though I wish they would post the rationale for testing the number of times they are doing - besides profits. Profits are a good thing BTW nothing against that. Science-wise - when people currently recommend testing Alk weekly - I think Neptune should defend why 3/d makes sense

Good point

 

[MnFish1]

My point was to answer the question of why the testing is much more frequent than we're accustomed to. I think the answer still holds true -- it's aimed at getting closer to constant monitoring of the parameters (It's not "constant" but it is a heck of a lot closer than once a week or even once a day.). If you choose to test less, that's fine...just know that there's a trade-off. It's up to each user to decide where the trade-off is worth it.
First, I think the statement: "The monitoring is designed to make money for the people that make the testing. No more, no less." is a gross oversimplification. I think it's fair (and obvious) to say that Neptune intends to make money on the product. That is why they're in business. However, to say that's the only reason for the product writes off any intention to better the hobby, increase value for the user, serve the customer, etc. I do hope Neptune gives an explanation for why the frequent testing, and perhaps they will. Perhaps it's based on the shelf life of the reagent, perhaps it's based on the swings they perceived in testing, perhaps it's based on what they thought users would want. In any case, they've built in the ability to change the frequency of testing, so it will ultimately be up to each user to decide. That's what's great about options!

I'm sorry - I meant to say that the testing frequency recommended by Neptune is designed to make money for the Neptune. I also was clear that they deserve to make a profit. There is no valid animal husbandry reason to do the testing as they recommend. If I bought the product, I would probably test less - but that will also come with hassles (reagents expiring on different dates, changing individual bottles of reagents as they are used up, etc). I wasn't trying to say that the reason the whole product was designed was solely to make money (i.e. I agree with your ideas that they are trying to advance the hobby, etc). My post wasn't clear - thanks for letting me clarify

 

[MnFish1]

NO3 and Po4 monitoring would be awesome. But again they come out with that and we would read pages and pages of people still upset with the classic incompatibility or how monitoring these two is silly and unimportant. Then you are called a fanboy and thats the end of a thread with potential good info about an interesting product to many others, lol.

As to the frequency of testing - if they recommended testing Nitrate and Phosphate 3x.day I'm sure there would be discussion about how important that would be. lol. I really think some of the comments here are beneficial to Neptune as they fine-tune the system and bring it market. If they see concerns before release, it may improve the product - and will likely help them market the product (especially defusing the (IMHO unrealistic)) anger regarding the backward compatibility.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I'm sorry - I meant to say that the testing frequency recommended by Neptune is designed to make money for the Neptune. I also was clear that they deserve to make a profit. There is no valid animal husbandry reason to do the testing as they recommend. If I bought the product, I would probably test less - but that will also come with hassles (reagents expiring on different dates, changing individual bottles of reagents as they are used up, etc). I wasn't trying to say that the reason the whole product was designed was solely to make money (i.e. I agree with your ideas that they are trying to advance the hobby, etc). My post wasn't clear - thanks for letting me clarify

Thanks for clarifying. And I'll also probably test less than the recommended regimen as well. I was just trying to give a logical rationale for why they are testing much more frequently than normal since that has been an area of criticism. I appreciate the points you raise. After all, the point of this thread is this kind of discussion IMHO.

As to the frequency of testing - if they recommended testing Nitrate and Phosphate 3x.day I'm sure there would be discussion about how important that would be. lol. I really think some of the comments here are beneficial to Neptune as they fine-tune the system and bring it market. If they see concerns before release, it may improve the product - and will likely help them market the product (especially defusing the (IMHO unrealistic)) anger regarding the backward compatibility.

Agreed. Hopefully they can pull some helpful cues from the comments. The feedback (though I think isn't all entirely fair at this point) is at least helpful for them in seeing people's concerns. I'm sure we'll see some solid responses to these concerns between now and when the product is released.

 

[Potatohead]

NO3 and Po4 monitoring would be awesome. But again they come out with that and we would read pages and pages of people still upset with the classic incompatibility or how monitoring these two is silly and unimportant. Then you are called a fanboy and thats the end of a thread with potential good info about an interesting product to many others, lol.

Nobody is saying monitoring Mag and Cal is unimportant. We are saying testing it twice a day is a waste. The noise of the testing is 10ppm, there is no point in testing more often than the tank consumes 10 ppm. You could make an argument about verifying your first test but any more than that is simply wasted reagent.

I suppose the second argument could be made if you use two part it would tell you if your calcium was overdosed with a stuck on pump or something but at that point you have bigger problems.

 

[justingraham]

NO3 and Po4 monitoring would be awesome. But again they come out with that and we would read pages and pages of people still upset with the classic incompatibility or how monitoring these two is silly and unimportant. Then you are called a fanboy and thats the end of a thread with potential good info about an interesting product to many others, lol.

Well if the protype worked with the apex classic before getting all the help in the world from apex making it then incompatible with the classic apex and only able to work on the new apex then


Yes I think people would be mad

But don't mind me I'm an apex hater as u have said in this thread even tho everything on my tank is run by an apex, Lol. Haha.

 

[VelocityTech]

I'd guess the frequency of testing is aimed at truly "monitoring" the parameters in question. Sure you can test less frequently, but if that would only achieve a similar result to your current testing regimen, then you lose a major benefit to having a system that can monitor your params and inform you of true trends. My .02.

Let's be honest. What stops you from testing 4x per day Alkalinity? For me. I sure don't think, "man its 40 cent per test." I look at Taking 4 scheduled intervals away from my planned day. Work, Home, work. etc. If i can test 4x per day. I will.

After all, the point of this thread is this kind of discussion IMHO.

I HIGHLY AGREE. And The time you save checking the parameters.. is flat worth it. Why else did we all buy hannah checkers ( well the ones that did ).

I would love to see Phosphate and Nitrate along side this unit.

I think if this so called "Test Run" Does good, I am sure, we will see every stable test that has 'solid regent' so to speak; be available through Neptune. Once they have a solid working regent system, Possibilities are endless.

Nobody is saying monitoring Mag and Cal is unimportant. We are saying testing it twice a day is a waste

I do believe many will also test 4x per day. The goal is to find the true swings of OUR tanks( This is currently un-known), before you can decline that number. What we are doing now, is taking averages, and putting those averages back in. I mean look how WIDE varied thriving tanks are. It's all.. well educated guesses and theories.

We are still on a very up hill learning curve of the ocean. Having hundreds of Hobbyist checking multiple times per day, will really help fine tune what we know.

 

[Potatohead]

I do believe many will also test 4x per day. The goal is to find the true swings of OUR tanks( This is currently un-known), before you can decline that number. What we are doing now, is taking averages, and putting those averages back in. I mean look how WIDE varied thriving tanks are. It's all.. well educated guesses and theories.

We are still on a very up hill learning curve of the ocean. Having hundreds of Hobbyist checking multiple times per day, will really help fine tune what we know.

For alkalinity, I agree. It would be very interesting to see what happens when you can even out diurnal alk swings. I know even if I test my tank an hour after lights out, two hours after when I normally test, the alk has already fallen about .2 dkh, so there is a definite advantage here. I guess it remains to be seen whether or not calcium and magnesium swings being controlled in the same way will make a difference. The problem is they are not accurate enough to be able to do it properly.

 

[Terence]

Our official FAQ can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/trident-faq.323209/

If you would like clarification or feedback from me, please ask questions there. Please understand that not all questions can be answered for a variety of reasons, but I will do my best.