NEVER Remove Sand! But Why?

[brandon429]

dang man so sorry to hear that

ugg the stuff is such a liability. we are finding over time that detritus exposed to air, like in a sump, or in a reverse undergravel filter like Paul's, doesn't have that lethality attached. somehow its o2 state matters in toxicity.

but in a stratified dsb/doom. it has to be full on reef surgery to survive messing with normal sandbeds, we have to do opposite of the greater advice regarding deep sandbed access that's for sure

 

[CavalierReef]

I watched a video on Melev's reef the other day and his experience is closer to mine over 20 years of using a deep sand bed. When I upgraded a tank, moved a tank, etc, I never had some noxious, Jonestown event. I'm talking about sand that was 5-6 years old in a 46 moved to a 90 to a 120 yada yada yada. This doomsday event just didn't happen. Where did I go wrong. I would like to know because I have every intention of setting up a new 32 gallon Biocube with a DSB.

 

[MrSkumfrog]

Several years ago I had a 105g reef with algae issues. It had a 3-4” nondisturbed sandbed. It had solidified into a brick.

My current Red Sea Reefer 425L is 7-8 months old with a 1-2” sandbed. I use the turkey Baster weekly.

My intentions are to continue with SPS; slowly remove the sand and crank the flow up.

 

[brandon429]

Cavalier I 100% believe you and agree thousands of old sandbeds can be accessed without doom.

the issue is mere variation. Considering the size of that sand rinse/ home move/ undo an invasion thread, we're dealing in hundreds of tanks directly, and then by reader replication what we type is affecting thousands of tanks. If we do not approach the sandbeds assuming problems, we will get problems and not only occasional fish loss, but whole tank loss.

Your particular oxygen vs waste profiles might have been in good balance, too many variables to pinpoint and these variables cannot work in a work thread

so that's the key to acknowledging your tank dsb access success vs the harsh advice I crank out regarding sandbeds. There is one system that is fail proof (surgical precision of takedown, being careful with detritus) and there is a much lower work system, that preserves your sandbed life, but its rife with noncompliant outcomes when dealing in hundreds or thousands of applications.

I hope that is a balanced way to see DSB access science in my opinion. it validates existing setups nicely, but highlights required patterns to manage work threads.\

There is no work thread on the internet showing the patterned transfer of in tact old sandbeds. there is only single examples, that really means something about the matter IMO because there is a huge demand for keeping sandbeds in tact where poss

 

[CavalierReef]

As they say, "you mileage may vary". And I'm not suggesting that a DSB is right for everyone and, in fact, I know people who have had catastrophic events with them. We aren't lemmings and we don't always follow the same paths. I've learned so much from my own mistakes as well as those of others and I try to weight the scientific with the anecdotal, blend it with my own experience, try very hard not to kill anything in the process and just enjoy the ride.

 

[jda]

You can remove even a DSB, but it must be done slowly and correctly. Do not stir it up. Either remove one small section all the way down, or remove a lot of the top 1/2 inch. You need the anoxic zones to react to the new oxygen that you are now allowing access. The bacteria load will also need to colonize elsewhere or else you can have filtration problems.

The largest thing to worry about is that you are now removing a large phosphate sponge, so your P could rise without the aragonite. You also will lot lots of microfauna that live in the sand (assuming that you had some). The worms, pods, stars, sponges, etc. will all not have a home. This can be especially troublesome with ich... the cysts (?, what are they called) that hit the sand are quickly devoured by the microfauna keeping the stuff at bay, but without the sand and without these microfauna, you can get more ich that makes it past the substrate phase.

I replace my sand staring in about year four and I do about 20-25% of the visible area at a time. This is the same as removal, but I replace it too. There is never any issue, but I do go slow.

 

[brianbigoats]

I removed mine after 6 months the coral looks better I was having clumping issues

 

[jda]

I think that most of the "sand crashed my tank" posts and threads are crap... gets a bad rap like salt mix issues, a screw in the sump, rusty magnet, window open and the neighbor sprayed for bugs, etc. I had a Tunze Fall once and turn over 4 feet of sand in a 8 foot tank and while the skimmer did go nuts and I had to turkey-baste all of the sand off of the rocks and corals, nothing died or was even very mad at all. I would like to avoid this again, but with 3-4 inches of sand, there was no hydrogen sulfate issue or anything else. My cucumbers really spent a lot of time in that area the next few weeks cleaning up all of the bacteria and stuff that was struggling with the new oxygen that it was exposed to.

 

[Andrew Schubert]

I had my tank up for 14 months with sand and new dry rock from day one. Despite even running a Pentair 40watt uv sterilizer, and algae scrubber I could never keep the rocks, glass, and sand clean. If I went more then 3 days without cleaning the glass, it was so thick with film I could hardly see through it.

So I decided to RIP all sand and rock out and introduce new dry rock and sand. Despite not removing any of my corals or fish (I have 14 in my 120) I never loss a single coral or fish. I took the Algae Scrubber and UV offline and converted to Zeovit at this time...so maybe that help??? I did also still have some rock in my sump, so it wasn't 100% turniver...but close.

It's been 6 months since then and haven't had a single issue. I can go 2 weeks without even having to clean the glass.

Just my experience. But am so glad I ripped out the old stuff and started over!

 

[brandon429]

Agreed.
it is mentioned twenty times or more in the sand rinse thread about not having to clean glass for a long time, fully agreed the waste impacted in a DSB matters to many when we sample more than one reef.
By you removing the bed you will reach a steady state for maintenance and be safer in power outages, it’s less oxygen demand to not have six pounds of heterotrophs competing with fish for o2 at critical times.

those with sandbeds will be on a bell curve at different rates of ascent and descent but it’s still got a downside we can show in patterns, in my opinion. the ascent is nice hands off balance time, and we should allow some percentage for those who can perpetually keep a DSB balanced. Small percent


Before the sand rinse thread where we tried to corral actions into one place for patterning, tank home moves were individual threads either notifying of the pending move/ track outcome or they were asking for help steps before the move.

early 2000s, when sandbeds were really popular and to disturb them would certainly not leave enough bacteria in place...tapwater rinse cycle recommend would get you banned from most sites as trolling...people were moving and upgrading reefs and I got front row seat to their crashes. Picked up patterns


I watched for years as people attempted moves at nano-reef.com and reefcentral. Hundreds of tank transfer threads with updates.

thats where old sandbeds with waste profiles different than our own exist, Im 100% sure JDA that the reason a transfer-your-sandbed thread doesn’t exist is because it won’t get out to page ten without wipeouts. Meaning the waste is consequential or such a thread would get made. I assure you they’d rather transfer it than rinse.


Judging from our own tanks simply cannot transfer over to work thread management, when it does we will have plural safe options to relocate them. I believe yours isn’t in a bad state, there are outliers in any group.

 

[madweazl]

So uh, I dont understand the issue with removing sand. About a year and a half ago, I drained our 75g, tossed all the sand (roughly 3" deep across the tank) in 5g buckets, moved the tank, left the sand in said buckets for two or three days, refilled the tank, dumped the sand back in, and carried on reefing as usual. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CHANGED.

Last Friday, I transferred 80% of the rock (and corals) from the 75g to our 150g. Every time I grabbed a rock from the 75g, I held it in front of the powerheads to blow off anything I could (75g has black sand and the 150g has white so I tried get most of the black sand off). You couldnt see inside the 75g because there was detritus and just general gunk clouding the tank. A couple hour later it was clear and everything continues on as normal in there.

I dont know where the sand horror stories come from but they're BS in my opinion.

 

[brandon429]

Has anyone ever seen a preemptive rip clean, to impart longevity, to head off eutrophication (old tank syndrome) long before it ever began in a huge reef doing perfectly well with zero problems and big expensive corals

120 gallon rip clean

I’ve decided to perform a rip clean on my 120 with 100% new water. The tank has been running for 5 years and was battling Dino for several months. I used the bacteria method from elegant corals and worked great I haven’t seen Dino in months now. But I tried several other methods including...

www.reef2reef.com

i can spot reef gems and Jon’s resolve above to save his animals before stress shows up is a diamond. We should be doing this where sandbeds exist **if you’re wanting total guarantee of safety** and the
longest lifespan it doesn’t mean the tank will die if you don’t pre clean.


Jon’s work there goes against recommends from this thread. there is no book, article, or reef sage post advocating doing this to a reef but we think he has seen his own patterns and identified cloudy sandbed waste as the sole cause of OTS, and he acted.


ive only seen this once, nearly all our collected works are reactionary


Jon’s reef sat in his home aging astoundingly perfect, literally at the peak of health and he took it apart, tap rinsed the sandbed for hours, rinsed the rock detritus using saltwater, and reassembled the tank with all new water and refallowed the setup.


have you ever seen better care of reef animals than this? No

of course the majority won’t agree we don’t like it that way anyway. Only working against the grain is fun pun intended.


Jon is showing a new way to buck old rules and command your investment to live proactively. He wants a sandbed for the zones it creates, but he doesn’t diaper his tank.

 

[brandon429]

To summarize

all people who claim dsb’s are harmless and the waste is harmless have only home examples for safe mixing of detritus with the upper reef, and have never logged that work in ways we can check for patterning using other people’s money in live time.


there are safe zones, and then there are years long work threads.

it is possible to remove a DSB without losses and if it’s done wrong, massive losses will happen if we are dealing with tanks other than our own

how to proof: make a thread in the general reef forum titled “how to move your complete sandbed intact, unrinsed, to another tank or another home- post your examples”

by page ten, some losses are on file.

 

[madweazl]

To summarize

all people who claim dsb’s are harmless and the waste is harmless have only home examples for safe mixing of detritus with the upper reef, and have never logged that work in ways we can check for patterning using other people’s money in live time.


there are safe zones, and then there are years long work threads.

it is possible to remove a DSB without losses and if it’s done wrong, massive losses will happen if we are dealing with tanks other than our own

Kind of like the crap you continually post about sand?

 

[brandon429]

No work thread means you have no patterns to post, and you’ve never stuck your neck out in a post when $ was on the line live time, dealing with noncompliant tanks. You don’t allow for noncompliants, it’s how I know you haven’t ran examples unless they were in your home. Link if I’m wrong.


make that thread title above, we can watch you maestro it/ very simple it should be.

simply use your convincing writing to recruit proofs into your thread, it’s the only currency worth debating. Let me see a few pages of you guiding upgrades, downgrades, moves and cyano fixes.


we can debate all nite long but I don’t see other 30 page work threads to draw truth or fiction from.

prediction: no other work threads get made, mines just invalid though.

 

[madweazl]

No work thread means you have no patterns to post, and you’ve never stuck your neck out in a post when $ was on the line


make that thread title above, we can watch you maestro it/ very simple

You can use whatever you want to justify what you post all you want but in 25 years of actual reef keeping, sand has NEVER been a problem for me.

Edit: follow my build threads; I don't hide anything. I post the good, bad, and the ugly. Cliff Notes; no ugly from sand or detritus.

 

[brandon429]

by the way I think vehement disagreements about procedural claims are good for the hobby. Part of the reason I like to run controversial actions past you guys is I know you’ll hack them to shreds, only good science will remain. Forums and work threads are the best crap filters

I appreciate the skepticism more than it seems. the harsher controversial claims are received, the better the board in my opinion. The example threads will either build proof momentum or they won’t, we can change reeftank procedure and save more tank animals from loss when new patterns can be shown.

 

[Alexreefer]

I had used Brandons directions to rinse my sand during a Dino outbreak. Following his directions carefully I was able to do this with no losses. Tank had began to turn around and now Dinos are on their last leg. Sure not all tanks are the same and some might be "better" than other but a reef is a reef and it will always find its stability. Just because someone's tank has been perfect from the start does not mean his finding are true.

 

[RimlessReef]

Remove like 15% of sand every 2 weeks with water changes.. so it won't strip the bio load Is what i did

 

[Slawman]

I removed my sand bed about 25% at a time over 10 weeks or so. It did have an impact in terms of stability (algae bloom, diatoms and cyano popped in for a bit) but all OK in the main. The event certainly disturbed the biome of the tank for a year or so so should not be done lightly however for me it was a good call and I am happy with the results over the last three or four years I have been bare. Unless you are running a DSB I found it very hard to maintain stability over years with sand/substrate in the display, I suspect the DSB contributes significantly to "old tank syndrome".