New build question: tanks with integrated sumps

[Theulli]

Hello!

I am looking at combining my two existing tanks into one larger one. I love the integrated sump system I have on my current ones, but I can't find one in the 100G range and which doesn't require that I buy a stand with it. Anyone come across these anywhere?

Thanks!

 

[sunken3]

do you just mean a tank that is sold in combo with a sump? or an all in one (compartment in the back)?

 

[Theulli]

do you just mean a tank that is sold in combo with a sump? or an all in one (compartment in the back)?

Fully integrated, so there's spillover to a compartment in the back, which also contains the return pump. I just have a probably paranoid distrust of anything that involves return pumps outside the tank, because I'm convinced I'm going to come home and find the external sump flooded some day because the pump failed.

 

[sunken3]

oh... ok.. an All in One (AIO).. sorry.. i've never gone over about 45 gallons with an AIO. I can tell you that an under sump system can be pretty safe from that issue if set up correctly. biggest "error" is where the tank overflow intake is.. if that is high in your tank, you CANNOT empty your tank into the sump overflowing it. you can also use checkvalves as well.. I have had sump tanks for decades with no issue (at least not any issues that are sump tank specific).

 

[Theulli]

oh... ok.. an All in One (AIO).. sorry.. i've never gone over about 45 gallons with an AIO. I can tell you that an under sump system can be pretty safe from that issue if set up correctly. biggest "error" is where the tank overflow intake is.. if that is high in your tank, you CANNOT empty your tank into the sump overflowing it. you can also use checkvalves as well.. I have had sump tanks for decades with no issue (at least not any issues that are sump tank specific).

So just curious - what sized sump tank would you stick under a 100G in that setup? If I have a 20G cube tank I am decommissioning, can I just use that?

 

[sunken3]

yes you could do that, maybe a bit smaller than i would use - though my sumps tend to be sized based o what i need to put in them.. eg, return pump, protein skimmer, etc. All my current sumps are trigger system right now which I like.. the fiji cubes ones look cool (but i haven't used)..

the "safest" in my opinion setup would be a display tank with an "internal" overflow plumbed to the sump... only 2 real issues that could occur here are... you somehow clogged your overflow and pump more water into your tank than it can drain... or you screw around with the plumbing and get crap under the bulkhead seal. each of these issues is easily avoidable... also the first one can also happen in an AIO if the internal filter box height is the same level as the tank (which, unfortunately is common).

The sump setup should have a return pump with a check valve (lets the water only flow up, not down the pump hose).. and make sure your return line in the tank (where the water goes back to the tank is fairly high up in the tank. that way if you lose power and the pump turns off... AND your check valve fails, the only water that drains into the sump is what is above your return to tank plumbing.. last.. test this "fail" water level and make sure you keep your running sump water level at or below this and you'll have no issues.

where i could see real issues are with tanks that have plumbing come up through the bottom of tanks.. hidden in rocks and such.. if something failed there you could drain your entire tank.. if your sump wasnt big enough (which would be likely), it would flood... not to mention you'd kill everything. But i have only seen these setups on youtube (and rare).

 

[blaxsun]

So just curious - what sized sump tank would you stick under a 100G in that setup? If I have a 20G cube tank I am decommissioning, can I just use that?

Probably 25-30 gallons (20 might be a tad tight). More space is always beneficial if you want to run things like a refugium, frag tank, RO reservoir, etc. The biggest thing is having multiple chambers for things like filter socks, skimmers, heaters, return pumps, etc.

I used to be a big fan of AIO tanks until I got a larger display tank with sump underneath. With the flexibility, freedom and reduction in maintenance - I’ll never go back to an AIO.

At one point Red Sea made some AIO tanks but I don’t know if these are in production any longer.

 

[sunken3]

Probably 25-30 gallons (20 might be a tad tight). More space is always beneficial if you want to run things like a refugium, frag tank, RO reservoir, etc. The biggest thing is having multiple chambers for things like filter socks, skimmers, heaters, return pumps, etc.

I used to be a big fan of AIO tanks until I got a larger display tank with sump underneath. With the flexibility, freedom and reduction in maintenance - I’ll never go back to an AIO.

At one point Red Sea made some AIO tanks but I don’t know if these are in production any longer.

agreed.. I have a few AIO tanks, but all nano.. really the back area just functions as a mini sump. key on the mini, which means you can't put much useful equipment in it.

 

[Theulli]

yes you could do that, maybe a bit smaller than i would use - though my sumps tend to be sized based o what i need to put in them.. eg, return pump, protein skimmer, etc. All my current sumps are trigger system right now which I like.. the fiji cubes ones look cool (but i haven't used)..

the "safest" in my opinion setup would be a display tank with an "internal" overflow plumbed to the sump... only 2 real issues that could occur here are... you somehow clogged your overflow and pump more water into your tank than it can drain... or you screw around with the plumbing and get crap under the bulkhead seal. each of these issues is easily avoidable... also the first one can also happen in an AIO if the internal filter box height is the same level as the tank (which, unfortunately is common).

The sump setup should have a return pump with a check valve (lets the water only flow up, not down the pump hose).. and make sure your return line in the tank (where the water goes back to the tank is fairly high up in the tank. that way if you lose power and the pump turns off... AND your check valve fails, the only water that drains into the sump is what is above your return to tank plumbing.. last.. test this "fail" water level and make sure you keep your running sump water level at or below this and you'll have no issues.

where i could see real issues are with tanks that have plumbing come up through the bottom of tanks.. hidden in rocks and such.. if something failed there you could drain your entire tank.. if your sump wasnt big enough (which would be likely), it would flood... not to mention you'd kill everything. But i have only seen these setups on youtube (and rare).

Yah, I'm looking at internal overflow options, specifically: https://www.innovative-marine.com/shop/INT-100-Aquarium-Tank-Only-Excludes-APS-Stand-p372977521

What I don't fully understand is what you do when you want to do maintenance that involves turning the pump off. I guess you just keep the water level in the sump low enough that the internal overflow only drains down to the top of the plumbing, and that won't be enough to overflow your sump?

 

[sunken3]

Yah, I'm looking at internal overflow options, specifically: https://www.innovative-marine.com/shop/INT-100-Aquarium-Tank-Only-Excludes-APS-Stand-p372977521

What I don't fully understand is what you do when you want to do maintenance that involves turning the pump off. I guess you just keep the water level in the sump low enough that the internal overflow only drains down to the top of the plumbing, and that won't be enough to overflow your sump?

yes.. so, for example.. inside the over flow, plumb a stand pipe (look it up.. or i can explain).. that will keep your water level higher "in" the overflow.. (and the noise down).. and yes, the water will drain down to the lowest point in your tank.. either the overflow intake grid/strainer, or your return pump piping (that's why i said to keep it relatively high).

when you turn off your power the water stops draining to those points.. so to setup your tank.. turn the power off.. see where the level in your sump is.. add as much water as you can (spare a few inches in your sump).. then your sump will never ovweflow when it is turned on..

 

[Theulli]

yes.. so, for example.. inside the over flow, plumb a stand pipe (look it up.. or i can explain).. that will keep your water level higher "in" the overflow.. (and the noise down).. and yes, the water will drain down to the lowest point in your tank.. either the overflow intake grid/strainer, or your return pump piping (that's why i said to keep it relatively high).

when you turn off your power the water stops draining to those points.. so to setup your tank.. turn the power off.. see where the level in your sump is.. add as much water as you can (spare a few inches in your sump).. then your sump will never ovweflow when it is turned on..

Great, makes total sense. Also helps that the above comes with the plumbing setup much like you're describing. Thank you!

 

[blaxsun]

What I don't fully understand is what you do when you want to do maintenance that involves turning the pump off. I guess you just keep the water level in the sump low enough that the internal overflow only drains down to the top of the plumbing, and that won't be enough to overflow your sump?

You turn the pump off, about 1/2” of water from the display backflows and gurgles down the return outlets and the water level in your sump goes up by about 1” (which is still 4-5” below the top edge of the sump). You perform your maintenance, turn the pump back on and all the water levels in the display and sump return to normal.

In any modern reef tank you’re going to have an overflow, emergency overflow and 1-2 return outlets. There’s almost no way for a return outlet to become blocked (unless you use a check valve - don’t), and there are two overflows to ensure the display never floods. Unless you fill your sump to the brim (don’t), you’ll never have an issue with it overflowing under any circumstances.

This is also why when you setup your tank that you gradually increase the pump speed and amount of water in the sump until you get the right height for your overflow, the right amount of flow through the gate valve and the right amount of water in the return chamber. You also perform an “emergency” test to simulate everything being shutoff, and note how much water from the display backflows into the sump.

 

[sunken3]

You turn the pump off, about 1/2” of water from the display backflows and gurgles down the return outlets and the water level in your sump goes up by about 1” (which is still 4-5” below the top edge of the sump). You perform your maintenance, turn the pump back on and all the water levels in the display and sump return to normal.

In any modern reef tank you’re going to have an overflow, emergency overflow and 1-2 return outlets. There’s almost no way for a return outlet to become blocked (unless you use a check valve - don’t), and there are two overflows to ensure the display never floods. Unless you fill your sump to the brim (don’t), you’ll never have an issue with it overflowing under any circumstances.

This is also why when you setup your tank that you gradually increase the pump speed and amount of water in the sump until you get the right height for your overflow, the right amount of flow through the gate valve and the right amount of water in the return chamber. You also perform an “emergency” test to simulate everything being shutoff, and note how much water from the display backflows into the sump.

mostly agreed.. you can overflow your tank if the pump is faster than your overflow plumbing or if the overflow "grid/screen" gets too covered in coral / algae growth... though both are easily avoidable.

 

[blaxsun]

mostly agreed.. you can overflow your tank if the pump is faster than your overflow plumbing or if the overflow "grid/screen" gets too covered in coral / algae growth... though both are easily avoidable.

Yes and no. If you’re exceeding the capacity of both your overflows, it means you don’t have something configured correctly in the first place - like the gate valve hasn’t been fine-tuned or you have way too much pump capacity in the first place. And while the overflow comb filters can become clogged, this will inhibit the flow to your return pump such that it will probably start running dry before it even has a chance to overflow the display.

My pump runs at around 45%. If for whatever reason it spins up to 100% it runs dry in less than 10-20 seconds. But this is just my setup, and I spent a great deal of time fine-tuning everything such that I’ve probably got a +40% water margin of error in the sump.

 

[sunken3]

Yes and no. If you’re exceeding the capacity of both your overflows, it means you don’t have something configured correctly in the first place - like the gate valve hasn’t been fine-tuned or you have way too much pump capacity in the first place. And while the overflow comb filters can become clogged, this will inhibit the flow to your return pump such that it will probably start running dry before it even has a chance to overflow the display.

My pump runs at around 45%. If for whatever reason it spins up to 100% it runs dry in less than 10-20 seconds. But this is just my setup, and I spent a great deal of time fine-tuning everything such that I’ve probably got a +40% water margin of error in the sump.

i think we are saying the same thing... if you set up your tank correctly, you should have no issues..

 

[dbowman5]

You turn the pump off, about 1/2” of water from the display backflows and gurgles down the return outlets and the water level in your sump goes up by about 1” (which is still 4-5” below the top edge of the sump). You perform your maintenance, turn the pump back on and all the water levels in the display and sump return to normal.

In any modern reef tank you’re going to have an overflow, emergency overflow and 1-2 return outlets. There’s almost no way for a return outlet to become blocked (unless you use a check valve - don’t), and there are two overflows to ensure the display never floods. Unless you fill your sump to the brim (don’t), you’ll never have an issue with it overflowing under any circumstances.

This is also why when you setup your tank that you gradually increase the pump speed and amount of water in the sump until you get the right height for your overflow, the right amount of flow through the gate valve and the right amount of water in the return chamber. You also perform an “emergency” test to simulate everything being shutoff, and note how much water from the display backflows into the sump.

well said Blaxsun. the only observation i would make is that the volume of the ATO needs to be small enough so that if it empties into the system it will not overflow it.

 

[LuizW13]

Is there a reason why most plug n play tank + sump manufactures make their overflow boxes inside the display? I don't like the look of a rectangle box in the middle of the display- does that make sense?

 

[dbowman5]

Is there a reason why most plug n play tank + sump manufactures make their overflow boxes inside the display? I don't like the look of a rectangle box in the middle of the display- does that make sense?

the idea i think is to optimize flow, versatility of set up, and skimming. if the overflow and return are in the center you can easily set up the sump in different orientations.

 

[LuizW13]

the idea i think is to optimize flow, versatility of set up, and skimming. if the overflow and return are in the center you can easily set up the sump in different orientations.

Couldn't you achieve the same by making the overflow like the AIO style, so that the back wall of the display doesn't have a little tall box going up the wall? At the very least you'd get a bit of space back into the display, no?

 

[blaxsun]

well said Blaxsun. the only observation i would make is that the volume of the ATO needs to be small enough so that if it empties into the system it will not overflow it.

Excellent point - I agree completely!