New clownfish acting weird?

tjoste · Feb 8, 2023

Hi!
I think my new clownfish are acting weird.
Im new to saltwater and just got the tank up and running about 3 weeks ago. I used Dr tims one and only and ammonium chloride for the cycling.

I still had readings of nitrite when I added them, but I read @brandon429 thread "how to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle" and figured my cycle was complete.
My Salifert tests was reading 0.25 amonnia (hard to read), nitrite 1 (probably higher, this is max) and nitrate 50-100 (not correct because of nitrite?)
Brandon, maybe you can confirm? Also did the smell test and no cloudy water

So I added the fish last night. Bought them from a local fish store (15min drive), that had just taken them out of QT this weekend.
I acclimated them for 15mins or so to match temp, and did 40+ mins of drip.

They were acting fine, swimming around and exploring when I turned the room lights off and heading to bed.
When I wake up I notice they are in the bottom corner of the tank, looking stressed. One of the clowns was laying on the sand, also sideways for a while, looked almost dead.
I instantly checked ammonia with the salifert test and thought I could see a hint of yellow, closer to 0,5 than 0.25. I added some Prime, and they suddenly started swimming around.
They have been acting fine (I guess) for the whole day. Been eating twice. The smaller one have been chased and bullied a bit, looked stressed and breathing more than the other.

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This evening they would stop swimming around and stay in each their own place. I turned off the wavemaker for the night, to give the small one a chance to relax,
and then they would go back to the corner/side of the tank. Suddenly they are friends, swimming together, looking a bit stressed. I checked ammonia again and I believe it could be 0.5. Added some more Prime, but didnt give same result as this morning.

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I don't know if this is an ammonia problem. Might been completely random that they started swimming again this morning (after Prime).
Could it be that this corner/sidewall is where they go to rest for the night? I haven't turned on my lights yet, only the room lightning.
If so, they went to bed before I turned the room lights off. Maybe they have an inner clock from the schedule of the store? If thats even a thing.

45G tank
Temp 25,6C/78F
8.1 PH
Salinity 35ppt
Good surface agitation

Anyone with similar experience or any advice so I can sleep comfortably tonight?
I uploaded the videos here as well, incase it didnt work: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MDOtwZG8CuCH6ttTXR88kp8RVL5hdM4l?usp=share_link

Thank you!

Jekyl · Feb 8, 2023

Videos aren't working. Uploading to YouTube can solve.

tjoste · Feb 8, 2023

Jekyl said:
Videos aren't working. Uploading to YouTube can solve.

Thank you!
I tried that as well, but I just get the "The specified URL cannot be embedded as media."
Edit: Just added the links instead

Jekyl · Feb 8, 2023

Both fish are eating?

#fishmedic

Jekyl · Feb 8, 2023

Welcome to R2R BTW.

I don't see anything visually wrong. Lots of times illness is often accompanied with skin conditions, rapid breathing, and lack of appetite.

tjoste · Feb 8, 2023

Jekyl said:
Welcome to R2R BTW.

I don't see anything visually wrong. Lots of times illness is often accompanied with skin conditions, rapid breathing, and lack of appetite.

Thank you

Both fish eat, yes. But the slightly bigger one seem to be dominant, so the small one looks afraid to go for food.
The dominant roams the whole tank for food, but the small picks up whatever floats in its face.

Maybe it's normal in this "who is the female" fight, but the small one seem to be very stressed, a lot of rapid breathing and staying in the same hidden place most of the time.

However, it was the dominant I thought was dying this morning (laying on its side)

tjoste · Feb 9, 2023

Hmm, i still get the feeling something is not right.
The ammonia test is impossible to read. In some light it shows as like before 0.25-0.5 and in other it even shows more yellow like 1.

The bigger one seems to have an itch. It would twitch its head and even scratch it into the sand. (didnt get that on video)

The small one is constantly in this corner. To my eyes it seems to breath fast, but maybe its just the mouth.

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I added Prime again, and a few minutes later they are both out swimming. I still think the small one are breathing fast, but it looks more relaxed.

This sudden change in behaviour after adding Prime twice now, might indicate that they are having problems with ammonia?

Should I keep adding Prime daily?
Should I buy some more Dr tims?
Should I do daily water changes? 10%, 20%?

They still eat, and I see no other signs of diseases. Except for the, in my eyes, fast breathing.

brandon429 · Feb 9, 2023

Drip acclimation is stressful and never recommended but I didn’t list that in the read clearly and it’s what the masses have done for years

not drip acclimating is part of the evolution of fish care just like we are evolving cycling end date assessment

I’ll go add that to the first paragraph in the thread. What we do is prove you don’t have an ammonia issue using that many pages and tanks, we have been letting people research their fish care separately from filter establishment.

they likely kept it in .016 water and 40 mins isn’t enough to get to reef salinity without some stress

***I need to have that in the thread paragraph one to handle the correct summary beyond the filter establishment: what people really want is fish carry on an ethical date. We need the preps that go hand in hand with filter establishment to provide that in a quick read summary at the start. I’m very glad you posted

rule out any ammonia issues, no more prime but what you added isn’t harmful

how do you verify your tanks salinity

code4 · Feb 9, 2023

Just my 2 cents on using prime with ammonia. It lasts 48 hours and then should be dosed again. A small water change with the prime added to the new water is often recommended. Hoping the best for the little guys.

brandon429 · Feb 9, 2023

those are not ammonia burning symptoms

I agree he’s acting abnormal there’s just a lot of unknown variables between how the lfs quarantines and the acclimation

I’ll bet 90% if you ask to see the setup it’s barren tanks with pvc pipe and a hang on back filter or something very white and sterile looking

seek out the videos and talks and threads discussing the impacts of bad quarantine, reefbeef has done them lately. You did a great job opting for the qt fish / I know it seems like a new level of complication and tweak keeps getting added to every new layer of reefing~~

good quarantine is terra cotta pots, low lighting, plastic plants, deep colored epoxy gravel / muted tones and exceptional quality feeding the whole time (Paul B's method from his book). Dry food only is like McDonald’s for life for fish, pro quarantine is incorporating fresh feeding efforts beyond that and the setups stand out very differently from common quarantine approaches

in the end you may need to try fish they’ve held at reef salinity, at the pet store, a few weeks -after- they complete quarantine

the cycle has been the fallback blame for decades so it’ll be hard to get away from that, LFS’s will be the last place applying updated cycling science/they sell bottle bac/ but part of bringing change in how people cycle is we start one by one ceasing doubt in bacteria going off that work posted and we handle fish care needs specific to the newest acclimation science of the day.

Im going to re write that entire first post today at work later on because you’ve pointed out needed subject matter the masses absolutely have to know to earn a high rate of fish retention.

They quarantined at low salinity is the 99% bet and the fish just didn’t have enough transition time to be perfect

*quarantine can fail, we can’t rule that out bc we didnt know all their variables and sometimes, occasionally, fish can have genetic maladies just like any organism, we can’t save those. Cycles have always taken the blame, we know that part is in process of changing.

Your thread is going to help people for sure, I’m using it as very helpful pre reading material in some key places. Your question here and beginning fish challenge is what all new tankers will face, well done subject reading here + helpful vids, very nice tank setup!

brandon429 · Feb 9, 2023

Cease the use of prime in reefing:

Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

Last August we discussed data that cast doubt on the ability of Prime to remove ammonia from artificial seawater. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/ Since then, I continued the search for evidence that Prime removed ammonia from artificial...

www.reef2reef.com

spoiler, because everyone reading is thinking they’ve seen it work to save fish in a reef tank.

two addresses to that:

-does the public seem very able to know when there’s an ammonia problem at all using their tools? A true read over the stuck cycle thread answers that. If someone is putting prime into a display, that’s a no ammonia control issue setting, always. They didn’t have a need for it, so it seems like it worked.

-Dan clearly shows in the thread above that lucky pH levels are what’s saving -quarantine- setups, low surface area setups (displays have too much surface area to have ammonia issues after day ten and bottle bac, we show)

the common pH levels people run prevents the free ammonia form from expressing at killer levels. If the pH was on the opposite trend, there would be lots of death even when using prime to make up for low surface area setups because prime is a sales gimmick and doesn’t neutralize ammonia, chemists caught them lying, on file above. I struggle to disagree with anything Randy HF has given as much study too. Him, Taricha and Dan? Close the book it’s a gimmick we all didn’t know about

I didn’t believe Dan at the start, he can tell you by our private messages. He convinced me because he’s a chemist and did controlled experiments, exactly like Dr. Reef did before my thread up top here, to prove that bottle bac works fine after day ten lead up using common sources of filter bacteria where rock surface area exists=any display reef

We weren't going to know prime was a fleece until the chemists helped us see it.

Jekyl · Feb 9, 2023

@vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal

tjoste · Feb 9, 2023

brandon429 said:
Drip acclimation is stressful and never recommended but I didn’t list that in the read clearly and it’s what the masses have done for years

not drip acclimating is part of the evolution of fish care just like we are evolving cycling end date assessment

I’ll go add that to the first paragraph in the thread. What we do is prove you don’t have an ammonia issue using that many pages and tanks, we have been letting people research their fish care separately from filter establishment.

they likely kept it in .016 water and 40 mins isn’t enough to get to reef salinity without some stress

***I need to have that in the thread paragraph one to handle the correct summary beyond the filter establishment: what people really want is fish carry on an ethical date. We need the preps that go hand in hand with filter establishment to provide that in a quick read summary at the start. I’m very glad you posted

rule out any ammonia issues, no more prime but what you added isn’t harmful

how do you verify your tanks salinity

Thank you very much! That makes a lot of sense.

What should I do instead of drop acclimation, find stores with reef salinity?
I did the mistake of not testing the bag water for salinity, so I don't know what it was (i guess I can ask them).
But I still have my bucket with water that I used for acclimation. I tested it now and it was 34ppt.
I also double checked my tank, and its actually 36ppt.
34ppt after 40+ mins of dripping, probably means it was way lower? just as you say.

So they had the big jump in salinity by drip acclimation, but also the direct 2ppt jump into my tank.
Fingers crossed they will be OK

Edit: I have a refractometer, calibrated with 35ppt solution

vetteguy53081 · Feb 9, 2023

tjoste said:
Hmm, i still get the feeling something is not right.
The ammonia test is impossible to read. In some light it shows as like before 0.25-0.5 and in other it even shows more yellow like 1.

The bigger one seems to have an itch. It would twitch its head and even scratch it into the sand. (didnt get that on video)

The small one is constantly in this corner. To my eyes it seems to breath fast, but maybe its just the mouth.

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I added Prime again, and a few minutes later they are both out swimming. I still think the small one are breathing fast, but it looks more relaxed.

This sudden change in behaviour after adding Prime twice now, might indicate that they are having problems with ammonia?

Should I keep adding Prime daily?
Should I buy some more Dr tims?
Should I do daily water changes? 10%, 20%?

They still eat, and I see no other signs of diseases. Except for the, in my eyes, fast breathing.

This fish is struggling with the swimming. If you look at the pic below, this fish has been battered likely by the other clown and has its tail bitten off and is literally missing the dorsal and anal fins which it uses to stabilize itself.
Did you lower water current as previously suggested?
Prime is merely a water conditioner and while labeled as a detoxifier does little if any to do just that. Its an alternative and not a solution.
While you can add Dr. Tim's, it is not related to your issue and tank appears cycled. Unless your ammonia levels indicate high level, no need to do frequent water changes while it does keep the newer system in check. I believe the fish is struggling with the essential fins missing and bitten to swim properly

brandon429 · Feb 9, 2023

that isn't too bad of a jump for sure. the most helpful takeaway is that you can eliminate filter issues from the behavior

I have been reading Jay's posts and responses in the disease forum and they recommend receiving fish in a holding tank, a side tank to the main display cycled and ready, and slowly up-adjusting salinity in there before going over to the new tank. usually 3-4 days for most of the big jumps like .017 to .024

taking that observation out farther, to 30 days, makes that receiving tank an observational quarantine and a heck of a double check against anyone else's pre quarantine including a pet store, Dr. Fish, Fishotel etc.

brandon429 · Feb 9, 2023

There is one minor new challenge to consider

our cycles make tanks instantly able to ethically carry fish without burning them, any seneye owner knows. but that doesn't mean disease isn't fostered in immediate and impactful ways by utilizing that quick ammonia control ability. double edged sword

if you build a reef first, without fish, that means all corals/cuc and balancing in place for months or even a year before you add fish, you get to fallow out a whole tank 1 time then add quarantined and pre-observed fish for the total win of today's highest retention rate order of ops.

but if fish go in first, the first non fallowed entrant you add from a pet store, like corals and CUC instantly negates the $ you paid for qt fish. wet things vector in pestilence to the reef tank.

you need a receiving tank now for everything you stock. I know that sounds bleak, but fish are the last order of addition in any reef where you're hoping to avoid a separate holding tank, the alternative is simply taking no disease preps at all and winging it; some are able to pull that off. not many, per post rates in the disease forum.

if you buy a set of corals and some snails, crabs and macro algae, common additions in a new reef, those go into a holding system for at minimum 45 days then they get added to your reef. any workarounds are simply fully negating the benefits of buying pre quarantined fish. check out max93's thread on that order of ops:

Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have...

www.reef2reef.com

tjoste · Feb 9, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
This fish is struggling with the swimming. If you look at the pic below, this fish has been battered likely by the other clown and has its tail bitten off and is literally missing the dorsal and anal fins which it uses to stabilize itself.
Did you lower water current as previously suggested?
Prime is merely a water conditioner and while labeled as a detoxifier does little if any to do just that. Its an alternative and not a solution.
While you can add Dr. Tim's, it is not related to your issue and tank appears cycled. Unless your ammonia levels indicate high level, no need to do frequent water changes while it does keep the newer system in check. I believe the fish is struggling with the essential fins missing and bitten to swim properly

Nice observation, I didn't notice that at all!
I see now that the smallest of them have the dorsal fins totally gone, and the anal fins partially gone.
The other clown have battered it since adding them, but it seem to have stopped already (i don't think they pair in 48 h?). They look friendly when close, and swimming together in the evening. Kinda looks like its protecting the smaller one. It would come to front glass thinking I will feed them, but when I turn around it will go back to the bottom sidewall, watching out for the small.
Will this grow out again if the battering have stopped, or should i take any actions?

I have turned off the powerhead, only flow from the return nozzles now (aimed at surface for agitation).
They don't really look relaxed tho

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brandon429 · Feb 9, 2023

that's a sharp sharp observation, very good detail catching there/nice one

I won't forget to add fish battering to the list of variables~

vetteguy53081 · Feb 9, 2023

tjoste said:
Nice observation, I didn't notice that at all!
I see now that the smallest of them have the dorsal fins totally gone, and the anal fins partially gone.
The other clown have battered it since adding them, but it seem to have stopped already (i don't think they pair in 48 h?). They look friendly when close, and swimming together in the evening. Kinda looks like its protecting the smaller one. It would come to front glass thinking I will feed them, but when I turn around it will go back to the bottom sidewall, watching out for the small.
Will this grow out again if the battering have stopped, or should i take any actions?

I have turned off the powerhead, only flow from the return nozzles now (aimed at surface for agitation).
They don't really look relaxed tho

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In many cases it simmers down but do stand back occasionally and observe to see thats' the case.
As for growth, its pretty far down, grow grow back but shorter than normal and tail will for sure restore to original shape

tjoste · Feb 12, 2023

The small one are getting worse. Stopped eating, still breathing very fast, and I think its starting to look a bit pale.
Hiding behind the rocks 24/7.

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The other seem to be doing fine. Swimming around, eating from my fingers. Still got that little head twitch, as it got an itch, but I haven't seen any rubbing against the stones/sand anymore. But, is it unusually active?