New QT...what to do...

[Congaken]

I set up a 5 gal. QT for a yellow goby that I'm expecting tomorrow...I used water from my reef and put in the old sponge...If ammonia shows, should I rely on a product such as Fluval's Cycle or the like...frankly, I don't have the luxury of cycling the QT since fish is coming tomorrow...advise please...

 

[Justiful]

I set up a 5 gal. QT for a yellow goby that I'm expecting tomorrow...I used water from my reef and put in the old sponge...If ammonia shows, should I rely on a product such as Fluval's Cycle or the like...frankly, I don't have the luxury of cycling the QT since fish is coming tomorrow...advise please...

Seachem prime is a nice thing to have around. I would just add a recommended dose. If ammonia shows up maybe add more. I also keep bags of Purigen around just in case I need them. Two tools that are cheap and worth having on the shelf. Just don't overdo the prime. I recommend dose for a new batch of water, then only if really need it in emergencies or to add to water change water. The directions tell you how to use it for regular maintenance and for emergencies. (oh get a syringe for accurate dosing if you don't have one already, using the cap is not very accurate).

I keep 1 bag of 100ml purigen in my tank 3 weeks before recharging it and putting in another bag. Maybe not the best strategy, but I haven't seen ammonia, nitrate, or nitrates in over 2 months. And I test daily with strips, and weekly with my API test kit. (yea I know I am cheap, but it works for me. Someday I will be baller and be able to afford redsea kits for more than just calc and mag).

 

[melypr1985]

I set up a 5 gal. QT for a yellow goby that I'm expecting tomorrow...I used water from my reef and put in the old sponge...If ammonia shows, should I rely on a product such as Fluval's Cycle or the like...frankly, I don't have the luxury of cycling the QT since fish is coming tomorrow...advise please...

Get an ammonia alert badge for real time ammonia monitoring. If you plan to use chemicals such as copper (any type) and even some other medications, DO NOT use prime at all. Prime (and other ammonia reducers like it) reacts poorly with some meds and turns the water toxic killing your fish. If you see ammonia I recommend just doing large water changes until the tank cycles itself and can handle the ammonia on it's own. Then you dont run the risk of using prime and needing to medicate.

 

[Congaken]

Seachem prime is a nice thing to have around. I would just add a recommended dose. If ammonia shows up maybe add more. I also keep bags of Purigen around just in case I need them. Two tools that are cheap and worth having on the shelf. Just don't overdo the prime. I recommend dose for a new batch of water, then only if really need it in emergencies or to add to water change water. The directions tell you how to use it for regular maintenance and for emergencies. (oh get a syringe for accurate dosing if you don't have one already, using the cap is not very accurate).

I keep 1 bag of 100ml purigen in my tank 3 weeks before recharging it and putting in another bag. Maybe not the best strategy, but I haven't seen ammonia, nitrate, or nitrates in over 2 months. And I test daily with strips, and weekly with my API test kit. (yea I know I am cheap, but it works for me. Someday I will be baller and be able to afford redsea kits for more than just calc and mag).

Melypr1985 says that mixing ammonia reducers and, say copper can turn the water toxic and kill...do you agree?

 

[melypr1985]

Melypr1985 says that mixing ammonia reducers and, say copper can turn the water toxic and kill...do you agree?

 

[Justiful]

Melypr1985 says that mixing ammonia reducers and, say copper can turn the water toxic and kill...do you agree?

I agree and disagree. If the Seachem Prime and Seachem Cupramine are added at the same time it can cause problems. If the Seachem prime is added after the Seachem Cupramine it can cause problems. If the water was previosly treated by Seachem prime (like water from your display tank) and Seachem Cupramine was added there would be no problem. Especially given the time frame we are talking.

You do not expose fish to long term doses of copper based products like Cupramine unless you are treating an ongoing condition. A copper bath for 24-48 hours is fine. But after that remove all the water, and add new water. Copper stresses fish. It can even kill fish. Why would you use copper at a medicinal level for months with no signs of a problem.

Personally I do a 24 hour copper bath in display tank water. Followed by Paraguard in a new batch of display tank water. Is it the best way... I don't know. But I do know Paraguard does not react badly to prime, and is safer than copper for a QT tank with no signs of ICH or other diseases.

(remember this is a QT tank, not a hospital tank ATM.) So by all means hit em with copper during QT, use Paraguard. But do not keep them in medicinal levels of copper the whole time.)

Her advice is VERY important however if you do have a sick fish, and need to treat copper longer. It is also the reason she recommended the ammonia badge. It doesn't give a false positive in copper treated tanks like test kits do.

 

[Congaken]

Ok. If you doubt me, then let's ask @Humblefish @4FordFamily or anybody else who you might respect their opinion.

I never doubted you...its just that there seem to be differing opinions and I don't want to screw things up...Thank you (sincerely) for your help....Ken

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree and disagree. If the Seachem Prime and Seachem Cupramine are added at the same time it can cause problems. If the Seachem prime is added after the Seachem Cupramine it can cause problems. If the water was previosly treated by Seachem prime (like water from your display tank) and Seachem Cupramine was added there would be no problem. Especially given the time frame we are talking.

You do not expose fish to long term doses of copper based products like Cupramine unless you are treating an ongoing condition. A copper bath for 24-48 hours is fine. But after that remove all the water, and add new water. Copper stresses fish. It can even kill fish. Why would you use copper at a medicinal level for months with no signs of a problem.

Personally I do a 24 hour copper bath in display tank water. Followed by Paraguard in a new batch of display tank water. Is it the best way... I don't know. But I do know Paraguard does not react badly to prime, and is safer than copper for a QT tank with no signs of ICH or other diseases.

(remember this is a QT tank, not a hospital tank ATM.) So by all means hit em with copper during QT, use Paraguard. But do not keep them in medicinal levels of copper the whole time.)

Her advice is VERY important however if you do have a sick fish, and need to treat copper longer. It is also the reason she recommended the ammonia badge. It doesn't give a false positive in copper treated tanks like test kits do.

I completely, respectively, whole heartedly disagree. Cupramine is a great preventative measure. NEVER mix copper and any nitrite nitrate or ammonia detoxifying products. This is what is blamed for copper deaths above all else. This mix IS toxic. Ammonia is the other killer. Copper is blamed when ammonia and mixing chemicals is the culprit. I've put dozens of immensely fragile fish, particularly Angels through 3x the recommended dose of cupramine without ANY issues. Even for months. I have even done hypo AND copper on many fish. Angels do not do as well with this but all 11 tang test subjects have done flawlessly. I do NOT recommend you do this but I had a terrible strain that cupramine couldn't handle.

My point is that I respectively disagree with nearly everything that was said here, for what it is worth to anyone.

 

[4FordFamily]

Get an ammonia alert badge for real time ammonia monitoring. If you plan to use chemicals such as copper (any type) and even some other medications, DO NOT use prime at all. Prime (and other ammonia reducers like it) reacts poorly with some meds and turns the water toxic killing your fish. If you see ammonia I recommend just doing large water changes until the tank cycles itself and can handle the ammonia on it's own. Then you dont run the risk of using prime and needing to medicate.

This is 100% spot on and what has effectively led to dozens of tangs, Angels, a few butterflies, a dozen wrasse, and other fish through hospital tank procedures prior to addition in my display tanks.

 

[Humblefish]

With very few exceptions, Cupramine + ammonia reducer = dead fish.

It causes the toxicity of copper to increase tenfold.

 

[Justiful]

I completely, respectively, whole heartedly disagree. Cupramine is a great preventative measure. NEVER mix copper and any nitrite nitrate or ammonia detoxifying products. This is what is blamed for copper deaths above all else. This mix IS toxic. Ammonia is the other killer. Copper is blamed when ammonia and mixing chemicals is the culprit. I've put dozens of immensely fragile fish, particularly Angels through 3x the recommended dose of cupramine without ANY issues. Even for months. I have even done hypo AND copper on many fish. Angels do not do as well with this but all 11 tang test subjects have done flawlessly. I do NOT recommend you do this but I had a terrible strain that cupramine couldn't handle.

My point is that I respectively disagree with nearly everything that was said here, for what it is worth to anyone.

How can you disagree with nearly everything. It appears the only thing there is to disagree with is that display tank water that has been dosed with prime in the past, but not recently is safe to use with cupramine.

Lets look at everything I said after that.
1. Don't expose fish to long term doses of cupramine unless you are treating a problem. (If there is no problem visable, why would you not just use Paraguard, or similiar products that are safer long term)
2. Dip fish in a copper bath, short term even when you see no problems when you take them from pet store. ( ok maybe this isn't even needed, just extra precaution, but certainly not something to do long term without cause.)
3. Paraguard is safe with prime. (true)
4. Paraguard is a better alternative to long term copper when you do not have a specific condition to treat. (debatable, but it is safer, not debatable)
5. Do not keep fish at medicinal levels of copper in a QT tank, unless you have a reason. (according to every guide, and every source I have seen and even the manufacturers directions)
6. Cupramine and all copper treatments cause stress to fish. (Fact... it is in every guide, and even the manufacture says so...)
7. Me agreeing that the advice given melypr1985 is correct for a hospital tank condition. (You agreed also...)
8. Me agreeing with her on ammonia badge. (Yes, I even added the reason why it is used... which was left out of her post)
9. Copper bath of 24-48 hours on new fish (Debatable, it doesn't have a down side except for possibly stressing a new fish. It can be delayed until further into QT I guesse)

I googled like crazy to make sure I wasn't crazy after reading that you disagree with nearly everything. I may be new, but this information is everywhere. I understand you have tons of first hand experience. But it sounds like you are talking about hospital tank procedures... which I already agreed with. This is a QT tank... I am very confused. So you had a situation where you treated at 3x recomended safe levels of cupramine... I am sorry but I think for most people that would kill their fish if they did that for months. And it is definitely not something you should do to fish you don't think are sick. I think it is horrible advice, and goes against EVERYTHING I have read in guides, and seen in youtube videos from channels I trust like BRS and LAFISHGUYS, and what the manufacture of the product says is safe...


As for adding Cupramine to a water that has been treated with Prime... Prime is only active for 24-48 hours. There is no way using tanking water that was treated in the past, but not recently could cause the problems you are speaking of. http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3983 --- Direct from the manufacturer. Read through it.

I will also add that their website also have information from the manufacture on cupramine and how to use it. Your using it in a way it was not intended, and they say is unsafe. I do not want to sound disrespectful, I know the likely hood of me being embarrassed by you or any number of people with far more experience is high. But that doesn't change the fact you only have anecdotal evidence, that conflicts with the information provided by product manufacturers, and in other guides. I have ALWAYS accepted the advice given on these forums from more experienced reefers like yourself without arguing I just accept that I am wrong, but in this instance I feel you are providing bad advice. Maybe one or two things I said is wrong... maybe I misread something or misunderstood... but honestly All of it????? Really? I mean REALLY, re-read it from an objective standpoint please, point out why I am wrong.

If you misspoke let me know. But please respond. This is a "how the heck could I be wrong on everything" jaw dropping moment for me.

 

[4FordFamily]

How can you disagree with nearly everything. It appears the only thing there is to disagree with is that display tank water that has been dosed with prime in the past, but not recently is safe to use with cupramine.

Lets look at everything I said after that.
1. Don't expose fish to long term doses of cupramine unless you are treating a problem. (If there is no problem visable, why would you not just use Paraguard, or similiar products that are safer long term)
2. Dip fish in a copper bath, short term even when you see no problems when you take them from pet store. ( ok maybe this isn't even needed, just extra precaution, but certainly not something to do long term without cause.)
3. Paraguard is safe with prime. (true)
4. Paraguard is a better alternative to long term copper when you do not have a specific condition to treat. (debatable, but it is safer, not debatable)
5. Do not keep fish at medicinal levels of copper in a QT tank, unless you have a reason. (according to every guide, and every source I have seen and even the manufacturers directions)
6. Cupramine and all copper treatments cause stress to fish. (Fact... it is in every guide, and even the manufacture says so...)
7. Me agreeing that the advice given melypr1985 is correct for a hospital tank condition. (You agreed also...)
8. Me agreeing with her on ammonia badge. (Yes, I even added the reason why it is used... which was left out of her post)
9. Copper bath of 24-48 hours on new fish (Debatable, it doesn't have a down side except for possibly stressing a new fish. It can be delayed until further into QT I guesse)

I googled like crazy to make sure I wasn't crazy after reading that you disagree with nearly everything. I may be new, but this information is everywhere. I understand you have tons of first hand experience. But it sounds like you are talking about hospital tank procedures... which I already agreed with. This is a QT tank... I am very confused. So you had a situation where you treated at 3x recomended safe levels of cupramine... I am sorry but I think for most people that would kill their fish if they did that for months. And it is definitely not something you should do to fish you don't think are sick. I think it is horrible advice, and goes against EVERYTHING I have read in guides, and seen in youtube videos from channels I trust like BRS and LAFISHGUYS, and what the manufacture of the product says is safe...


As for adding Cupramine to a water that has been treated with Prime... Prime is only active for 24-48 hours. There is no way using tanking water that was treated in the past, but not recently could cause the problems you are speaking of. http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3983 --- Direct from the manufacturer. Read through it.

I will also add that their website also have information from the manufacture on cupramine and how to use it. Your using it in a way it was not intended, and they say is unsafe. I do not want to sound disrespectful, I know the likely hood of me being embarrassed by you or any number of people with far more experience is high. But that doesn't change the fact you only have anecdotal evidence, that conflicts with the information provided by product manufacturers, and in other guides. I have ALWAYS accepted the advice given on these forums from more experienced reefers like yourself without arguing I just accept that I am wrong, but in this instance I feel you are providing bad advice. Maybe one or two things I said is wrong... maybe I misread something or misunderstood... but honestly All of it????? Really? I mean REALLY, re-read it from an objective standpoint please, point out why I am wrong.

If you misspoke let me know. But please respond. This is a "how the heck could I be wrong on everything" jaw dropping moment for me.

My mistake, I was hurried when I read but I disagree on the following main points.

1) I disagree on ever attempting ammonia reducers and copper in any fashion. You're correct prime doesn't remain on the water long but since we have no real way to test for it (or don't) I don't recommend people play with fire on this one:

2) also disagree with not using copper long term and as preventative rather than treatment. Copper will not be effective for 24 hour periods of time.

My methods of treatment were an attempt to thwart a very resilient strain of ich. Believe it or not, in one case, either it was unsuccessful or the parasite survived an 84 day fallow period. This is why the risky endeavors.

Sorry if I came off rude, I wanted to make sure that people did not kill fish. I've made the above mistakes in judgement before.

 

[Justiful]

Thanks 4ford. I did assume it was something like that.

1) It is not 100% safe I agree, but is reduced the longer it has been since you dosed it. Suppose it depends on a persons evaluation of risk/reward of using tank water in their QT tank. I feel the risk is low... and I have ancendotal evidence it didn't kill my fish... but I can see why you wouldn't recommend it. I think I may re-evaluate this next time I QT, and only use 1/2 tank water just to be safer, until the end of treatment when I will gradually increase it to as close to 100% as possible with water changes. I suppose since my QT is small I will just use nutri water as the second half. Since I already use it in my tank for half my water changes.

2) I agree copper is not 100% effective for 24 hours. I suppose your method could work as good or better than a medications and copper bath dip method. After looking more it appears the order I use... copper bath then medication is backwards... most hit with paraguard(or other meds) as a preventative and do a copper bath towards the end of treatment to make sure nothing lived. I suppose we only differ on the method of preventatives. I am 100% for copper treatment in a hospital tank environment where a fish is know to be sick. (mostly cause I watch LAFISHGUYS channel on youtube and he rants about people trying alternatives because of "risk" of copper, while the fish are dying)

Thanks for the reply 4ford.